Engine Wants to Shut Down after Full Throttle

[R_W_B]

I'm lurking on this thread jamesn. This is a most interesting scenario. Hoople is much more an expert on such while I'm the neophyte, but I'm really intriqued as to what is occuring when going WOT after reaching 4k rpm.

I understand what Hoop is saying about the firmware table varibles being corrupted but appears that corruption is occuring "only" when the WOT + beyond 4k rpm is reproduced. I agree that the initial CKP given TDC that's reported early on that would seem to have to be ok to me since the engine performs fine at startup and up to 4k. I'm guessing the rest of the firing order timing is coming from the TPS, MAP and Temp inputs and is monitored in real time so these varibles (in the tables) would (or could) be changing all the time.

Given the quality of the ThunderMax product I can't help but think that it has the ability to gather and adjust it's tables in real time. If that proves to be the case then appears that something (EMI maybe) is occurring at the magic 4k and causing these tables to be corrupted. I know this is very frustrating to you (jamesn) being it's your ride and I hope you, ThunderMax and Hoop can get it ironed out. And the rest of us will have a very interesting scenario eluminated.

 

[jamesn]

Guys to date I've tried a lot of things trying to find the route cause of my fault. Just to recap on my fault and what's been done is as follows...

I’m experiencing a fault that is causing my engine to be Dead in Decel.
• This fault is not intermittent
• The fault is not generating any error codes
• The fault is triggered by quickly twisting the throttle to 75%-100% TPS and holding to > 4,000 RPM
• This fault is not triggered if quickly twisting the throttle to 75%-100% TPS and holding to < 4,000 RPM
• This fault is not triggered when slowly twisting the throttle rev’n the engine to Red-Line and or Rev-Limiter.
• The fault is only triggered when in motion, i.e. it is not triggered when in neutral.

Once the fault is present the engines decal is dead as though no spark or fuel and or both.
• Engine dies if ‘0’ TPS, clutch applied or stopping.
• Ignition power is still present, i.e. lights, turn signals, speedo, tahco, starter, etc.
• Engine continues to run perfectly if accelerating and will comfortably run all day still able to rev to red-line and or rev-limiter
• Once stopped, engine will not re-start unless ignition is switched off/on to reset ECU (TMax system)
• Once reset the engine runs as though nothing happened...until triggering the fault again

Items checked and or done to-date:
• TPS Sensor – this has been checked and within HD spec
• MAP Sensor – this has been checked and within HD spec
• Crank Sensor – this has been checked and within HD spec
• TSM – has been checked and all is ok
• TMax 36 pin connector cleaned and greased (does need wriggling now and then for positive connection)
• Battery power – Voltage regulator output checked; +14 volts @ 3,600 rpm
• Bike being washed – all visible electrical plugs have since been cleaned and greased
• TMax AutoSuppot engine run data recorded and sent last week – still waiting for results.
• Still to check Hoople’s input re hitting kill switch and 12 volt bulb.

Engine was recently rebuilt 103ci everything was perfect for 6 weeks prior to this fault happening. Overall the engine is still running perfectly, good fuel mileage, plenty of power, no decal popping or back firing is evident.

This fault appeared over-night, nothing was touched, changed or installed prior.

 

[Hoople]

You have some good collected data and you have done your homework. But before I really rolled up my sleeves and jumped into it, I would wait to hear what TMax has got to say. You just never know. They deal with issues like this all the time and could know right off the top what it is. The beauty of this problem is that it can be duplicated "on demand".

I doubt seriously that TMax will say they have never seen anything like it before and it can't be the T-Max unit itself.

 

[R_W_B]

(• The fault is only triggered when in motion, i.e. it is not triggered when in neutral.)

Just briefly I wanted ask if the fault occurs in "any" gear, or which gear ?

 

[jamesn]

RWB, it happens in every gear, just not in neutral. So therefore either load or 'G' forces play a part in the fault. Since it doesn't happen to fault on rough bumpy roads I assume it's load on the engine mainly.

 

[Hoople]

just not in neutral.

When you goose the throttle in neutral to get the RPM above 4K, are you mechanically nailing the TPS (grip)? That would be required.
I also wonder if the TSS uses the VSS signal in some way (other than just speedo MPH) to come up with a particular cell value within a map. This could be outside of the programmers view (owner/tuner person) and embedded in the firmware.

Something along the lines of how Delphi uses the VSS signal in conjunction with the TPS position to actually determine target RPM (IAC step position) at idle.
You don't SEE the influence the VSS signal has on idle RPM when using the SEST but the firmware instructions are there and working behind the end-users view. IAC target step position is not based on TPS position alone. The settling speed of the IAC target position is based on the VSS signal also. You don't SEE the influence the VSS signal has on idle RPM when using the SEST but the firmware instructions are in place and working.

Remember that what the end user sees and what he can modify within the maps is not everything that is present, working and going on. There are LOTS of window thresholds and "requirements" taking place behind the scenes. For example, think of all the "long term fuel trim" and "short term fuel trim" that we know MUST be taking place but we can't see within the software. This is the proprietary information that is never released to the general public. Very similar to the source code information needed to determine the root cause for Toyota's unexpected acceleration issues.
"a piece of carpet getting jammed"... ya right.

 

[R_W_B]

Evidently TM is still working this out with jamesn but I wanted to iterate on the current directions.

jamesn->Water in Electrics? maybe the TSM

jamesn->My closest memory is that I washed the bike around the same time and my turn signals did play up for a day. The following day everything was fine.

(jamesn->
• TSM – has been checked and all is ok
• Bike being washed – all visible electrical plugs have since been cleaned and greased -)

Hoople->I also wonder if the TSS uses the VSS signal in some way (other than just speedo MPH) to come up with a particular cell value within a map.

-------------------------
I've had my TSSM out before and it looks rather weather proof, though I'm not sure how much of seal there is. And of course there is the connector pins. But after all this time they would be dry by now. And his turn signals have regained normal operation and jamesn's later post states the TSM is OK.

A sensor somewhere could fail and causing the current stat variables to be misleading to the TM's If-Then loops "but" there is no code being thrown ? So it would appear we can rule that out.

As many TM units bought and boasted on doing such great jobs (even at adjusting to upgrades in real time) it appears that this one scenario,

(jamesn-> a 2004 Softail TC88B modified to a 103 ci, with head work and gear driven cams, and using ThunderMax Autotune.)

is catching a glitch in the TM tables. A most interesting thread for one of the most expensive and sought after Tuner solutions on the market. We are all hangin on TM's solution for this, which I surmise might take a few experiments between them and jamesn.

 

[jamesn]

Hoople, earlier you requested I flip my kill switch while in motion, you also mentioned that you have some other possible hardware issues on the HD side...I’m keen to know more.

A long story with how I found this out but I’ve since found that my problem is intermittent and that if once my fault is present I’m also able to flip the kill switch off/on in decel (drag) and the engines dead decell disappears with the engine returning to normal. Therefore, I’m suspecting my problem has nothing to do with my TMax system?

 

[Hoople]

you also mentioned that you have some other possible hardware issues on the HD side...I’m keen to know more.

I’m suspecting my problem has nothing to do with my TMax system?

Before going down that path, I would need to come to a dead end on the path I was already on. Don't change your current path. That makes people loop themselves into total confusion and is usually the kiss of death.

In entry point #22, paragraph 2 you state the fault was Not intermittent and can be forced or created On Demand. But today you said "A long story with how I found this out but I’ve since found that my problem IS intermittent and"... Are you saying you now can blast above 4K @ WOT and the fault sometimes does not appear? You need to elaborate on the new statement. I would really like to hear the long story behind it all.

So from what you said today,, am I correct that when in "failure mode", you can flip the RUN/Kill switch to OFF,, drag the engine while in gear for a 100 feet, flip the kill switch back to RUN, and the failure resets and clears. The engine is once again running smooth and it will idle on it's own without any outside help at 0% of TPS.? All without touching (rebooting) the ignition key.
If this is true, it is an important piece of information.

The TMax people haven't replied back yet? You really need to find out what their take/opinion is on the entire matter. Whatever their answer is,, it's a big missing piece of the puzzle. Are they aware that flipping the RUN switch un-hangs the failure and re-syncs the engine. They would have to have some kind of comment when they heard that & we need to know what it is.

Also was hoping you would perform a quick test. Unplug the connector going to the MAP sensor. With the map sensor unplugged, try to start the engine. If it does start, does it idle and if so how does it perform. It it happens to run good with no issues, reboot the ECM using the ignition switch and try it 1 more time.
Knowing that Alpha-N engine management designs do not use engine load for calculating spark advance and A/F ratio, I would like to see if that sensor is used for any form of running life support.

 

[R_W_B]

I agree with Hoople we desperately need to hear what TM is saying about this. Or also in relation to results of Hoops above MAP test possibly what they are not saying. We won't know till that test is done and reported.

Until we get those inputs we are fishing in a pond with a big unknown depth hole in the middle of it.

I have begun to sense a possibility though of not a sensor failure, but a sensor conductor trama failure. This intermittent poor continuity would cause faulty data (volt readings) delivered to the TM but no fault is thrown since it is still calculatable by the TM. The TM is not a lie detector, if the value is calculatable it's going into the stats even if say the temp sensor says it's 2 degrees fahrenheit.

But what blows this synopsis apart is the engine isn't dying when this physical pressure or trama on 75%+ throttle is applied at 4k rpm vibrations, rather it "only" occurs later during low rpms ? ? ?

So I'm stumped. We need that input from TM and the MAP test so Hoople can analyse this more.