Engine Wants to Shut Down after Full Throttle

[jamesn]

Re finding out that the fault is intermittent, it just happened, I can’t explain why but while out riding on the weekend I was being annoyed by 3 high performance sport bikes hanging too close on my rear through a winding uphill pass. It wasn’t long before air was pumped into my rear shocks for ground clearance and my throttling became erratic...race mode was in play. My red line (set on 6,000) was hit several times and speeds well over the 125 mph where hit on the short straights between bends...having a 300 rear also helps in tight corners as others tend to stay well behind in oar and leaving no room for them to pass taking up so much of the road and power sliding out as she pulls away. After 3 miles of extreme I was down and out mentally and had to back off, but for some unknown reason everything was fine, not once did my problem raise it ugly head?

The TMax tech team got back to me yesterday, hence me doing a complete Firmware re-install as they say the data I sent them was corrupt, unreadable. They've also requested I do a recording while riding and generate the fault as they'll be able to see which sensor in the system may be the culprit.

However, with no sensors throwing errors codes and that the fault has since been found to be intermittent, I’m confident there is an electrical fault in my system. Maybe a power surge or voltage spike which Tmax did indicate it could be as they’ve never experienced what I’m experiencing.

If you recall me saying my turn-signal was playing up after washing my bike....guess which side! My right hand side control, kill switch side, may have been water logged and still is causing problems, or could it be my regulator, a circut breaker, main fuse, and or my coil?

I’ve just written back to TMax informing them of now learning that the kill switch resets the fault rather than having to reset the ignition/Tmax and if they would still require rdie/record data as the resetting may confir with them that it’s not a TMa/Sensor fault.

 

[Hoople]

However, with no sensors throwing errors codes and that the fault has since been found to be intermittent, I’m confident there is an electrical fault in my system. Maybe a power surge or voltage spike which Tmax did indicate it could be as they’ve never experienced what I’m experiencing.

I would never expect the built in diagnostics of the ECM to pick off a bad sensor with any reliability. That firmware only detects dead shorted (sensor high) or wide open (sensor low) sensor conditions. Yes, it's better than having nothing but for the most part it is almost useless. Noisy, non linear and out of calibration sensors will never be detected by the built in software. Just because a code is not thrown does not mean the sensors are good. Forget that hypothesis right now.

But black box recordings (or data logging) will indicate a bad sensor. A Black box recordings allows you to step through the software one line/frame at a time. You will see exactly what the conditions were at the time of the ECM hang up. You can go directly into the ECM hang portion of the software and even step backward. You can see the exact step when the ECM did not know what to next and when it "jumped" outside of it's normal designed routine into the "hang".

Since the problem is somewhat now intermittent, a black box recording is even more important. I agree with Tmax. Make a another recording with a recorded failure and have them disassemble it. Don't make the mistake of shot-gunning this problem. That is the last thing you want to do.

If the bike was pure Delphi, you may have no other choice other than to shot-gun the problem. Because even if you did make a flight recording and send it to Delphi, they would not disassemble it for you. They would tell you nothing. If you sent the recording to Harley, they wouldn't know what to do with it,, so your only other choice would be to "try this or try that". You would have to experiment to some degree in that case.

The T-Max support team wants to give you help. That is terrific. Take advantage of it.

 

[jamesn]

Thanks Hoople as that all makes sense. My wife and I are about to fly north for a weeks leave...escape the forcasted rain/flooding that we're experiencing here at present. Then I've a business trip for a week visiting mines in Northern Australia, so it may be a while before I'm able to do an inflight data recording, plus will also need to work out how the PC can be mounted. Will keep you all posted.

 

[R_W_B]

. . . . . .
But black box recordings (or data logging) will indicate a bad sensor. . . . . . . . . . .
The T-Max support team wants to give you help. That is terrific. Take advantage of it.

Wow I did not know you could get a recording from the TM like that. Does he hook it up to laptop to do that ?

I know auto mechanics that track down intermittent issues like this in real time by putting suspect sensor items on a scope while running and they can actually see the intermittant fault occuring on the wave. Even some of the more expensive handhelds ($220+) have a runtime data screen but with less clarity. However this problem occurs only at speeds and not with the bike sitting so that's a big challenge with hooking a scope to it and reading it while riding. Possibly with a battery handheld and an assisting passenger.

. . . . . . .
My wife and I are about to fly north for a weeks leave...escape the forcasted rain/flooding that we're experiencing here at present. . . . . . . .

Do you guys get the monsoons for months on end like they do in Viet Nam ?

. . . . . . . . to do an inflight data recording, plus will also need to work out how the PC can be mounted. Will keep you all posted.

Ok you just answered part of my above question, you can actually hook the TM up to a laptop just like the TTS or SERP. Aside from the runtime data recording can you could experiment with maps just like with TTS ? This is all interesting to me since I thought the closed loop TM was all about real time adjustments and no map tinkering.

 

[jamesn]

Guys I’ve just had 2 days at home before flying out again with work, so had a chance to investigate a little more...now I’m even more confused.

Connected my wife’s small PC to do an in-flight recoding for the TMax Tech team. Mounting the lappy on the tank was ok but being able to ride with TMax cable connected is another thing...not so easy. However, do you think I could get the system to fault (re dead decal after hard fast throttle twist to >4,000rpm)...Grrrr! I got the shites in the end, packed up and went for a ride instead with no problems experienced all day until 5 min’s from home...gave the bike a wrap and it faulted again, but this time my TSSM system had recorded a historic code during my ride earlier...prior to fault being activated!

As mentioned previously I disconnected as many wire connections that were in reach, cleaned and lubed them, also played around in the TSSM region. Note: my TSSM is a little loose in its location and can be wriggled about a bit...not firmly held in its holder. Anyway, after doing this my fault than changed to being intermittent indicating that whatever I had touched or played with is the cause and that my fault is looking more like an electrical connection problem or maybe it’s still a sensor on its way out.

Though the TSM/TSSM fault recorded is strange one!
1. My security key light came on when exiting a turn, not from my known fault activation?
2. Re historic code ID, the security key light stays on 4 sec etc, but the turn signals do not flash 6 times as they should also do to ID a TSM/TSSM historic code is present?
3. The fault recorded is code 44. It is not recorded in the TMax DTC or shown on the Speedo DTC system...it’s only shown through “Invoking TSM/TSSM diagnostics” procedure.
4. The code is easily cleared as per: Invoking TSM/TSSM diagnostics procedure.

I’ve been through my manuals (workshop, tech and TSM/TSSM), spoken to my HD Tech and searched the net far & wide, and so far I’m unable to find any reference to code 44 other than the following....

1. Some refer code 44 being an attempted theft...the bike can still be ridden and should be taken to a HD Tech? My HD Tech has never heard of this nor do any manuals refer to this?
2. Hoople you were involved in a code 44 with Roadking01 – Sept 16th 2010, but the code was never resolved...and his problem was a splattering engine on acceleration?
3. The Fuel Moto web site re Harley Trouble codes is the only site I can find a code B1144 listed...from what I understand Historic codes are also shown as B11** numbers? Fuel Moto refers this to a (HFSM) Security Antenna Short to Battery?

I have no idea if my dead decal fault is related to my TSM/TSSM Historic code recorded but it could be. My HD tech did originally say my TSSM Accelerometer may be playing up and from another Forum I did have someone say they experienced a similar fault that was caused by a loose wire to the TSM plus they had to replace the TSM?

Yesterday I took the bike out again and couldn’t get the Dead Decel fault to happen, but the Historic Code 44 did?

I’m starting to think it is my TSSM. Prior to installing the TMax system I used a PCIII which was strapped to my TSSM and held all firmly in place...some website search refers to PCIII causing TSSM faults but not all cases use PCIII? However, with no PCIII attached my TSSM can be wriggled in it location...however, if it is the cause one would think bumpy roads would cause the fault, not just activate a code 44 out of nowhere and or causing a Dead Decel from hard fast throttle twist >4,000rpm that can be resolved through a flick of the run switch on/off during decal?

 

[R_W_B]

Jamesn I got a feeling Hoople is over at Leesburg Bikefest, but he will probably check in later today.

I have a gut hunch you are going in the right direction, but things are still a bit ambigious. I'm wondering if your BAS is going bad and is intermittent at this point (if that's possible within the sensor). Further on many models the BAS is part of the TSSM so if that's the case the TSSM would have to be replaced. (unless the wires going to it are shorted)

As far as the codes, I'm confused a bit, does your bike have the antenna ?

To check an HFSM unit for this code.
With ignition on, probe the 4 terminal connector that hooks to the antena lead (may have only 3 wires to this connector). Check voltage between terminal 2 (of said connector on harness side) and ground. Is voltage present ?
If yes, locate and repair short.
If no, Replace HFSM.
---
But if you don't have the antenna you obviously can't do that.

You mention the dealer suggested accelerometer, but the codes for that are B1135 Accelerometer Fault TSM/TSSM and B1136 (HFSM) Accelerometer Tip Test Error and you have not gotten those correct ?
---
I don't think the TSSM should fit too loose, can you see any way to get the pins to tighten up on that or is it a sealed unit and once they get widened out your stuck with it ?

 

[Hoople]

This weekend I'm intending to put my old TSM (prior to TSS) back in to see if it is the cause,

Lets back up a minute. You currently have a TSM or TSSM in the bike? Did the bike originally have a TSM in it? And then you upgrade to a TSSM... I am lost.

When you replaced your original TSM with whatever you now have installed, did you configure it?
How are you "invoking TSM/TSSM diagnostics". Where & what is telling you that a DTC of 44 is stored? The turn signals are blinking this code? It is almost like your in configuration mode.

 

[jamesn]

The bike was purchased new in 2004 with a TSM. A couple of years later I installed an OEM alarm system...TSSM with FOB, so has an arial and has been on the bike for almost 6 years now. The code is being displayed by turn sigmals following the TSSM DTC procedure. Code 44, i.e. 4 flashes follower by 4 flashes. The code is easily cleared each time...it has been activated 3 times since I played around with the electrical plugs within reach re cleaning n greasing, and playing with TSSM i.e. wriggling it in it's location...which one of the things I touched causing my original fault re Dead Decel to being intermittent.

TSSM was correctly configured as has been and still is working as it should re turn signals and alarm. The diagnostics code is being read by ignition on/off/on/off/on, and then turing signal required sequence till codes are displayed via counting flashes.

 

[Hoople]

The diagnostics code is being read by ignition on/off/on/off/on, and then turing signal required sequence till codes are displayed via counting flashes.

Which is what sequence?

 

[jamesn]

Checking for trouble codes.....Turn signal module/Turn signal security module.

To diagnose the TSM/TSSM observe the behaviour of the turn signals. If the signals flash six fast 4-way flashes shortly after key on, then an error code has been logged.

Code Types There are two types of trouble codes: Current and Historic. If a trouble code is stored, it can be read using TSM/TSSM Diagnostics.

Current Current trouble codes are those which are present during the current ignition cycle.

Historic If a particular problem happens to resolve itself, the active status problem is dropped and it becomes a historic code rather than a current code. Intermittent output shorts can become typical historic codes. Historic codes are stored for 50 ignition cycles. It is important to note that historic codes will exist whenever the system indicates the existence of a current fault.

Notes *If the turn signals flash six four way flashes shortly after key on, it indicates an error code has been logged sometime in the last 3 ignition cycles. On vehicles with TSSM, the security lamp will also light for eight seconds after the bulb check if historic codes are present. *The security lamp will stay on if current code(s) are set. If a historic code is present, the security lamp will light for 50 ignition cycles or until the code is cleared manually.

Invoking TSM/TSSM diagnostics
1: Set Run/Stop switch to off
2: Turn ignition key ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON
3: Press the left turn switch two times and release. *The signals flash 2 times for a Domestic TSSM
4: Press the right turn switch 1 time and release. *The signals flash 1 time.
5: Press the right turn switch 1 time and release. *The signals flash 2 times.
6: Press the right turn switch 1 time and release. *The signals flash 3 times.
7: Press the left turn switch 1 time and release. *The signals flash out the trouble codes.

There is a 1.5 sec pause between flashes to distinguish between 1st and 2nd digit of codes. There is a 4 second pause between codes, and then it will loop and repeat codes. If the light comes on for 4 seconds after invoking test then goes out for good, there are no codes stored.....test over....turn ignition off. Wait at least 10 seconds before turning ignition on again.

8: To clear codes (after repairs) press and hold left turn switch for 4-5 seconds at end of test. *The signals flash 2 times to confirm your request.

Codes
11= Battery voltage high
21= left turn output fault
22= Right turn output fault
25= Ignition enable output high
31= alarm output low
32= alarm output high
34= starter output high
35= accelerometer fault
41= Ignition switch open/low

Which I notice are all the same numbers as some as HD – B11** DTC’s