Engine Wants to Shut Down after Full Throttle

[Hoople]

Wow, I didn't fully understand your problem. I thought the engine quit once you hit 4K. I didn't know you could force it to stay running above 2K if you had too.
That points even more toward a phasing issue.

Nothing is 100% proof positive but I would almost bet the farm it is TMax related, more so on the firmware side than the hardware side. Not Map related (because if it was, reducing the RPM would clear up the fault) but actually firmware related or firmware corruption related.

Just out of curiosity see if you can get a straight answer on how the TMax phases itself to the crank. If the answer you get is "from the crank sensor", then ask if the TMax retains stock sequential fuel injection firing? If the answer is "yes", then your next question is "then how does the TMAX phase injector timing". The answer can not be "with the crank sensor". Also find out if you can run a non Delphi ION coil if you ever wanted to. A positive answer to that question reveals a bunch on how the TMax really works.

I had a phasing issue on my stock Delphi 2009 bike that was driving me crazy for months. It turned out to be the NGK iridium plugs I was using. They are just not compatible with the ION sensing firmware,,, at least on my bike they were not. I just couldn't believe that you HAD to run 6R12 plugs. So I didn't. And so I learned.

 

[jamesn]

Guys, when I say the activation number is 4,000 rpm when the throttle is twisted quickly into the 75%-100% TPS region, the engine doesn't die so to speak, it'll continue to rev to red-line once the fault is activated. But once it is activated my DECELL is DEAD. Therefore, I can still ride all day as long as I don't stay in DEACCELERATION mode for too long or allowing the RPM’s to drop below 2,000 rpm, otherwise the engine is DEAD – NOTHING and I than need to reset the ignition for the bike to be normal again.

I found these magic numbers 4,000 and 2,000 through twisting the throttle through many scenarios trying to locate the cause.

I’ve also found that once the fault is activated and I’m decelerating, if held at ‘0’ TPS the engine is dead. However, if I apply enough throttle, bringing the engines RPM above my deceleration RPM’s the engine fires and continues to run normal. Therefore, this indicates that when in decell there isn’t any fuel or spark, yet there is if I continue to throttle. If not throttling in decell it’s evident that there’s no fuel, otherwise the engine would backfire when tying to restart...but it just fires up nicely as if nothing ever happened. The fault also doesn’t cause any error codes in the system.

Strangely though, if I ride sensibly and not twist my throttle quickly and hard into the 75%-100% TPS I don't have a problem at all. If I take it slow and easy the engine still rev's to red-line without triggering the fault, and I’ve since found that if I’m in neutral I’m able to twist the throttle as fast and as hard as I like to 100% and the fault isn’t triggered, it’s only happening while riding, when the engine is under load or the bike is under ‘G’ forces?

 

[jamesn]

Hoople, thanks as I'll be asking ThunderMax if not satisfied with their answers.

I wouldn't wish this fault on anybody as it's a pain, I enjoy throttling hard when away from prying eyes, but it even worse when needing to overtake or avoiding danger. Though it is pleasing that it’s not an intermediate issue as I’ll eventually track it down. Strange though, that I changed nothing on the bike, it just happened over night. My closest memory is that I washed the bike around the same time and my turn signals did play up for a day...the following day everything was fine. But I THINK and I only think that this was when my problem began.

 

[Jack Klarich]

Hoople, thanks as I'll be asking ThunderMax if not satisfied with their answers.

I wouldn't wish this fault on anybody as it's a pain, I enjoy throttling hard when away from prying eyes, but it even worse when needing to overtake or avoiding danger. Though it is pleasing that it’s not an intermediate issue as I’ll eventually track it down. Strange though, that I changed nothing on the bike, it just happened over night. My closest memory is that I washed the bike around the same time and my turn signals did play up for a day...the following day everything was fine. But I THINK and I only think that this was when my problem began.

Have you jumpered the kill switch yet? Too much water maybe has the contacts shorting? Just thinking out loud here

 

[jamesn]

Jack, I'll be trying the kill switch scenario later today (Friday - 7.45 here now). I just wish I could easily reach into my TSM for a quick check. Hopefully ThunderMax will also respond later this morning.

 

[Jack Klarich]

Jack, I'll be trying the kill switch scenario later today (Friday - 7.45 here now). I just wish I could easily reach into my TSM for a quick check. Hopefully ThunderMax will also respond later this morning.

Good Luck I am curious to see what fixes your bike:s

 

[Hoople]

I just wish I could easily reach into my TSM for a quick check.

Maybe I am overlooking it, but I can't see how the TSM gets tied into a problem like this. What's your thoughts on how it could be the problem.
Thinking it's a BAS problem because only on acceleration?

 

[jamesn]

Hoople, it's just that my local HD tech a close friend is also stumped and thinking of any electrical part capable of shutting the engine down. Thinking that washing my bike I've caused a fault in the TSM re it's accerometer. I've since visited 4 Harley mechanics here locally who are also stumped and lost for answers, and done test on my TPS sensor, Map sensor, Plugs, Leads, Coil and all are working fine. I've yet to check the Crank sensor but each mechanic has ruled this out as a possible cause as the engine wouldn't be performing as it does once the fault is activated.

As mentioned, the engine is dead in decel only if I accelerate hard to above 4,000 rpm and it will still continue to run fine all day as long as I don't stay in decel for too long and or stop as the engine will die and need reseting. The engine still runs perfectly once the fault accures except I have no fuel in decel (the engine is dead) However if I accelerate out of decel the engine runs fine. Rather than stopping I'm now clutch rolling and reseting on the move to reset my ignition rather than having to pul over each time.

If I accelerate slow and easy it'll rev to red-line and even rev-limiter with out any problems what so ever and not activating the fault. It's only if I rev hard?

Someone from another forum gave me a link to a similar problem experienced which I'm now investigating as it's partly the same but it's not, refer: 1130cc.com: The #1 Harley Davidson V-Rod Forum

Thanks for all your help so far and I'm still keen to hear of any other thoughts you may have.

 

[Hoople]

The people at TMax never answered any of your questions or were of no help? What about the recorded flight data you sent them. BTW, I am pretty sure the T-Max system is Alpha-N, so it should not be using the MAP sensor. You need to know if an ION coil is required for the TMax.

Never received a reply to sidebar question I asked in entry point # 9 of this thread. Also see if flipping the kill switch (while in that 2K to 4K failure zone) from RUN to OFF, then back to RUN, takes the ECM out of its confusion. It will also tell you if push starting without cranking un-hangs the ECM or if the ECM absolutely requires a Power-On-Reset or re-boot to clear itself.

You said the engine is dead on decel but is it. I would mount a small 12 volt bulb to the bars with some duck tape and wire it across the system relay coil. Just strip back and tin the wires, remove the system relay, insert the tinned wires in socket #85 & #86, and install the relay. Ride the bike and de-accelerate. The light will tell you if the injector duty time is just being chopped by the ECM or if the spark/injectors are being shut down hard through the relay. If the relay remains active, you know it's a software driven problem. Better yet, if you use a LED (with a current limiter resistor) instead of an incandescent bulb, you will also be able to see relay flutter, should that be taking place. Use thin wires so you don't spread the relay terminals.

This is a problem you can easily get lost on and start to loop yourself. It can be software, firmware or hardware. Don't perform a test in order to find the answer. Instead perform a test to eliminate a possibility. Just collect positive answers to several simple questions. Each answer may not tell you what the real problem is, but it tells you more what it can't be. It will force you to the root cause.

The link you provided just took me to the forum not the thread.

 

[jamesn]

Hoople, love you way of thinking. Tomorrow I'll test the sidebar question re entry point 9. No ThunderMax have not yet responded which is unusual as they normaly respond within 2 days...but it is the weekend now, so fingures & toes crossed they'll respond early next week. My fualt may also have them stumped! Sorry about the 1130cc thread not working, it does from the other forum and my email...tomorrow I'll try again as it does discuss decel fuel in detail for others experiencing similar, it's just that my issue appeared over night unlike their's. I'll also have go at setting up the 12volt buld test next week sometime.