maladjusted pushrods

[tourbox]

stray dog, as for the timing marks, on the Shovels,Evo's and Sportsters there is a plug at the base of the 2 cylinders on the motor(block). Left hand side for BT and right hand side for XL's. When removed there are a couple of marks on the flywheels. One is for TDC(advanced). You use it for setting the ignition timing with a light or preliminary timing of the ign. plate.
tourbox

 

[stray dog]

stray dog, as for the timing marks, on the Shovels,Evo's and Sportsters there is a plug at the base of the 2 cylinders on the motor(block). Left hand side for BT and right hand side for XL's. When removed there are a couple of marks on the flywheels. One is for TDC(advanced). You use it for setting the ignition timing with a light or preliminary timing of the ign. plate.
tourbox

tourbox-thanks for chiming in!
since electronic ign & computers I've not had a need for my timing light or tach-dwell-point tester for a long time, nor have I owned older bikes with points. So I wasn't sure what the OP was referring to...my bad.
I was just trying to make sure Ron was on the right track.

 

[dolt]

One can use the cam timing marks to assist in locating TDC on a TC motor. Below are pictures of the cam timing mark positions that indicate TDC. The first is rear cylinder (#1) TDC and the second is front cylinder (#2) TDC. Of course, if adjusting pushrods piston should be at TDC on the compression stroke. If the cam plate is off as in the photos, one can also look behind the cam plate an see if the lifter is on the heel of the cam.

 

[dolt]

does OTDC = Atdc?

If that is the case and the piston was far enough ATDC/OTDC, the OP could have very easily bent an intake valve on the next revolution. It doesn't take much and a first time DIYer may not even notice the tick.:shock

 

[glazier]

One can use the cam timing marks to assist in locating TDC on a TC motor. Below are pictures of the cam timing mark positions that indicate TDC. The first is rear cylinder (#1) TDC and the second is front cylinder (#2) TDC. Of course, if adjusting pushrods piston should be at TDC on the compression stroke. If the cam plate is off as in the photos, one can also look behind the cam plate an see if the lifter is on the heel of the cam.

Thats exactly how I found TDC on my old Heritage when I did the pushrod adjustments. And before cranking her up for the first time, I spun the motor slowly by hand with the spark plugs out to make sure there was no resistance. Was still a little leary about firing her up the first time, but it all worked out real good. I wonder if the OP adjusted the pushrods on TDC on the exhaust stroke and not the compression stroke. That could do some damage to the lifters, valves, or pushrods. Maybe thats what he meant by OTDC. I never heard of that either and thought it was something new to me, but when Dolt said he never heard of it, I didn't feel quite as stupid

 

[iamron6113]

I have been wrenching on TCs for years and that's a new term for me. TDC, ATDC and BTDC I am familiar with but OTDC is a new one for me pleas explain.

Adjusting pushrods remains a mystery for the uninitiated DIY guys. There are various ways but the KISS way is to rotate the rear wheel in top gear, plugs removed, until you hear the compression whoosh out of the target cylinder; piston must be on the compression stroke. The piston can be at TDC on the exhaust stroke but the cams in overlap and lifters not completely on the heel/base circle of the cams. Once you hear the compression whoosh ( you can also hold a finger over the plug hole) out of the cylinder INSERT a straw or something similar into the spark plug hole and "bump" the rear wheel until you find TDC. Piston can be a little before or after TDC for pushrod adjustment; adjust pushrods. Rinse and repeat for the next cylinder.

You may have bent a valve if pushrods were not adjusted properly. You could run a compression test before firing up the motor again to verify that a valve has not been bent. If I knew what OTDC meant, I could better respond. Many a valve has been unknowingly bent from improperly adjusted pushrods.:icon_wink:

History: I meant BTDC. I've had 'overlap' in my mind.
Doesn't really matter now, because I already created whatever is the problem. After maladjusting pushrods on 1st go around, I called S&S, not about not being in TDC but about pushrod adjustment and they verified 24 flats once lash is out. On 2d try, I made sure I was in TDC before installing in cyl and + bleed down time, rotated wheel and did same on other cyl. Problem now is the problems: what damage did I do under the rocker covers? Being scared to crank it, I was advised to try pulling in the clutch w/ plugs till out and cranking the engine to listen for any abnormal noised. I did and nothing sounded wrong- no unusual rattling, noises etc. But, after installing plugs and cranking bike, it runs but sounds like its laboring. So, something is wrong- not so wrong as to keep bike from running but just not right. For a minute I considered that maybe the new lifters might cause it to run still but . . but that can't be it. So, only option is to go in from the top and see what damage I caused.

Also, Stray Dog, I took your advice and with plugs out and clutch pulled, I cranked engine. Sounded fine! But, after installing plugs and cranking, although the bike runs, its laboring, I don't know how else to say it. . except perhaps ...... its running 'stiff,' if that makes any sense. So, I guess I'm going in from the top to see what damaged I caused. Thanks again, I appreciate it and will keep the advice you gave me handy. Ron

 

[dolt]

Also, Stray Dog, I took your advice and with plugs out and clutch pulled, I cranked engine. Sounded fine! But, after installing plugs and cranking, although the bike runs, its laboring, I don't know how else to say it. . except perhaps ...... its running 'stiff,' if that makes any sense. So, I guess I'm going in from the top to see what damaged I caused. Thanks again, I appreciate it and will keep the advice you gave me handy. Ron

Your description of "laboring" and running "stiff" are symptoms of sumping. Since you have rebuilt the cam chest, it is possible that the oil pump was not aligned properly (another first time DIY experience). Before tearing into the top end, pull the crank case plug from the bottom of the right side of the engine case and drain the crank case. If you get more than 4-6 ounces of oil out, the motor is sumping and that should be addressed before re-visiting the top end. R/R the plug carefully, if you meet resistance removing the plug, apply a bit of heat (propane torch, heat gun or even a hair dryer) and when installing the plug, use a bit of pipe thread sealant and do not over tighten; cases have been cracked that way. Once you know whether or not the motor is sumping and that issue has been addressed we can fall back on the pushrod issue and, I would suggest, start from scratch, re-adjust the pushrods before firing up the motor again. JMHO.:hii

BTW, what did you mean by "OTDC"?

 

[Jennmarr]

If the bottom end checks out ok a leak down test will tell you a lot about the condition of your top end without taking anything apart. If you damaged anything in the valve train, the valves are the most fragile component. If a valve kisses a piston it usually results in a bent valve rather than damage to lifters, rocker arms, or push rods.

 

[dolt]

Please go back and read #7; have been down this road before and you need to be methodical going about resolving your issues or finding out if you even have any. The "laboring" you make reference to would not be a symptom of a bent valve or most anything that could be wrong with the top end. However, it is definitely a symptom of sumping. If the motor is sumping, you should clear that issue first before addressing whatever, if anything, is going on up top.

As Jennmarr suggests, once you know whether or not the motor is sumping and have addressed the sumping if it is, then do the leak down test. If you have bent a valve (which is very possible if you adjusted pushrods at BTDC) and that will be obvious under leak down. You could have bent a valve and not even know it if you were spinning the motor with the plugs out. The piston strike would be hard to hear with the compression popping out and the starter spinning. It's not like a hard strike that would stop the motor; just a light kiss and a piston will look like the one in the photo and a valve bent.



Take your time and take one step at a time. You may get lucky and find that the motor is sumping, clear that, and find the the top end is OK.:hii

 

[iamron6113]

To all: I'm still confused on some of these timing distinctions and terms. One thing is crystal clear NOW: I know how to find TDC so I wont make that mistake again.
But, the milk is split and now, I'm trying to clean it up.
You know what they say. . . experience is the best teacher. . but, the question is: can you afford the tuition ! We'll see.

Thanks to all who offered advice. Ron