fisherman124
Active Member
when stopping keep the front wheel straight , if u turn the bars at the time ustop it pulls badly to that side and down if u dont catch yourself
Tipping over at slow/stop
- Thread starter pyro
- Start date
No flames here drbillk, because you are correct. If I didn't use my front brake in that millisecond just before a full stop when I have to get off the back brake pedal in order to put my feet down, then I would indeed go down due to no forward motion. I'd been thinking I was doing something wrong since I couldn't come to a smooth, full stop using only the back brake. I'm glad to see that maybe I'm not the only one. Can't wait to take my MSF course in two weeks and picking up some pointers from the experts. Meanwhile I've been seeking out the big parking lots in the off hours and practicing slow maneuvers. Riding a 700 lb. bike is a different animal from the little Hondas and Triumphs I rode many years ago. Thank you all for the information and opinions and to pyro for bringing this topic up.
Ishmael
Ishmael
Try putting only the left foot down when coming to a stop. This enables you to keep gentle pressure on the back brake and just glide to a gentle stop, after using BOTH brakes to dump all of the speed.
The trick is, use both brakes right up to the last second before stopping. In the second or so before coming to a standstill, just ease off the front and apply increased pressure to the back brake.
Another reason not to put both feet down is that it is far easier to do a hill start using the back brake. If you have both feet planted on the ground it's not easy to open the throttle and work the front brake at the same time, all with one hand...least I don't think it is.
From Rawldyman
"Try putting only the left foot down when coming to a stop."
I'm gonna try that Rawldyman, thanks. One of the things I've noticed since getting back to riding is that I don't feel "smooth" in some of my riding actions, mainly stopping. I know a lot comes with more seat time and practice, but I don't remember feeling at odds with any maneuvers years ago, maybe its just wishful thinking and that indestructible, immortality and infallability that we all have when young. I also notice that I'm more hesitant to put the bike into a hard lean in curves than when I was riding 40 years ago. Pretty sure my bones are more brittle and I've cleaned enough road rash in the ER to know I don't want any of it.
Prediction of 60+ degree weather in North Carolina this weekend. Ol Butch (my real nickname) is gonna ride to my hearts content. Suggest you all do the same if you can. Good therapy, cheaper than a psychiatrist for sure!
Ishmael
"Try putting only the left foot down when coming to a stop."
I'm gonna try that Rawldyman, thanks. One of the things I've noticed since getting back to riding is that I don't feel "smooth" in some of my riding actions, mainly stopping. I know a lot comes with more seat time and practice, but I don't remember feeling at odds with any maneuvers years ago, maybe its just wishful thinking and that indestructible, immortality and infallability that we all have when young. I also notice that I'm more hesitant to put the bike into a hard lean in curves than when I was riding 40 years ago. Pretty sure my bones are more brittle and I've cleaned enough road rash in the ER to know I don't want any of it.
Prediction of 60+ degree weather in North Carolina this weekend. Ol Butch (my real nickname) is gonna ride to my hearts content. Suggest you all do the same if you can. Good therapy, cheaper than a psychiatrist for sure!
Ishmael
D
dbmg
Guest
Maybe this might shed some light::::
1. Which brake is the most effective?
The front brake is the most effective, giving between 60 & 80% of the bike's stopping power in hard stops, depending upon surface conditions. This is because most of the weight of the bike and rider transfers forward onto the front wheel when the brakes are applied.
A common example of weight transfer is when you trip on a gutter - your feet stop but momentum keeps the top of you going and you fall flat on your face. The weight transfer that takes place under braking on a motorcycle pushes the front wheel onto the ground and makes it grip very well.
2. Is the front wheel likely to skid if you apply the front brake hard?
No. The front wheel is likely to skid uncontrollably and bring you down only if you jam the front brake on hard. If you apply the front brake in a staged (progressive) process, the front wheel may skid but that skid is normally quite controllable.
3. Is the rear wheel likely to skid if you apply the brakes hard?
With most of the weight being on the front wheel, the rear wheel tends to be light under braking and will therefore lock up and skid very easily.
4. How do you control a rear wheel skid?
Control of a rear wheel skid is easy. Just keep your eyes up to the horizon and look where you WANT to go (not necessarily where you are actually going) and the bike will skid in a controllable manner with a minimum of fishtailing.
Basic and advanced braking techniques are best learnt under controlled conditions rather than when a truck pulls out on you! Your local motorcycle school will run a fun braking exercise session for you and some mates if you care to call the school and arrange it.
5. Is braking a natural skill?
Braking, as with any riding skill, is a learned skill, not a natural one. This means you must practice the correct braking skills enough to make them an instinctive reaction before you can be sure that you will do the right things in an emergency. Overseas research has shown that, because of panic overpowering the rider's conscious reactions, nearly a third of all riders do absolutely nothing in an accident situation: they don't even apply the brakes!
If, however, your high level braking skills are so well learnt that they are instinctive, you will do it right, no matter what the situation. However, this requires you to do a lot of high level braking skill practice, the skills will not come with normal everyday riding.
6. Is there a special braking technique that ensures that a rider will get the best out of a motorcycle's brakes?
Yes. The process is called STAGED BRAKING and it involves the rider applying the motorcycle's brakes in a staged process. This gives the rider predictable, progressive braking.
7. In an emergency do we concentrate on using staged braking on both front and back brakes?
This is a controversial subject. Some experienced riders reckon that, even in an emergency when research has shown that panic tends to decrease your riding skills, they can apply the back brake perfectly with no loss of braking on the front.
Well, research has shown that the average rider can only properly concentrate on the use of one brake in an emergency so, unless you think you're road motorcycling's equivalent of a top motorcycle racer, we would suggest that you concentrate on getting the best out of one brake.
Of the front and rear brake on a motorcycle, the one to concentrate on in an emergency is the front brake because if you get that one wrong, lock it up and don't correct that problem then you're going to crash.
According to the American Motorcycle Safety Foundation, if you try to get the best out of both brakes in an emergency, you will get the best out of neither. The MSF says you can't concentrate FULLY on both brakes at one time. You know your mother's old nag, "You can't concentrate on two things at one time"!
So, to get the best braking, you have to concentrate using either the front or the back brake and, since the front brake gives up to 80% of your braking power and incorrect application is likely to make you fall off, it makes sense to concentrate on the front brake.
The American Motorcycle Safety Foundation teaches their instructors that "in an emergency braking situation you should apply the back brake hard and let the back wheel slide if it wants to. This way you can concentrate on what is happening up front; there's enough to think about in the use of the front brake."
8. So how should I apply the rear brake? Apply it and forget about it. Let the back wheel skid if necessary. Concentrate on using staged braking to harness the superior power of the front brake to save your life.
9. Is Staged Braking difficult to learn?
Given practice, the skill is not difficult to learn. The best way to learn it is to start off with a four stage application of the front brake. Later you can increase the number of stages to make your braking more and more progressive, if you want to.
10.Can you explain four stage braking in practical terms?
To understand four stage braking, think of a rider coming up to a set of lights. Stage One is the force with which he applies the front brake when he sees the lights turn orange some way ahead, in other words, lightly.
At Stage One, the rider is applying the front brake to the point where the brake is just on and slowing the bike down very, very gently to roll to a stop.
Stage Two is the force the rider would use if he was a bit closer to the lights when they turned orange, and he had to make a normal, smooth stop at the lights. So, Stage Two is the firm pull used to bring the bike to a firm, but quiet stop. The rider applies his front brake to Stage One (friction point) before going on to apply to a steady force at Stage Two.
Stage Three. Our rider has dithered about whether to stop for the orange light before deciding he'd better. By this time, he has to stop quite hard to stop. So he applies the front brake to friction point (Stage One), then onto a firm pull (Stage Two) before applying pressure with a strong pull at Stage Three.
Stage Four. The rider very unwisely decides to run the orange only to find, just before he reaches the lights, that they turn red. In this serious situation the rider needs all the braking he's got. So he applies the front brake to friction point, moves onto the firm pull of Stage Two, then to the strong pull of Stage Three, before giving it all he's got at Stage Four.
11. If you "give it all you've got" on the front brake at Stage Four, won't you get front wheel lockup?
Possibly but by using the staged braking process, by the time the tyre gets to the point of locking up at Stage Four, the weight has transferred forward onto the front wheel and any tendency of the front tyre to lose grip is both easily sensed and controlled, unlike a front wheel skid caused by a tyre locking up when the brake is jammed on hard while weight is moving around on the bike under weight transfer.
With correct use of the Four Stage process, controlling a front wheel skid is simply a matter of keeping the wheel steering straight ahead as you relax pressure on the front brake to allow the wheel to revolve again and regain grip.
12. What will happen if the front wheel locks and I don't relax some pressure?
You'll fall off as the wheel will eventually tuck under and the bike (and you) will fall down.
13. How good can you get at emergency braking?
In emergency stops, expert riders are capable of controlling a front wheel skid by releasing pressure on the front brake just enough to get that wheel turning again without actually letting the brake right off. This requires considerable sensitivity on the brakes and the only way you will gain this sort of sensitivity is to practice.
At the NZMSC higher level Megarider sessions, the way the instructors tell if the pupil has reached a suitable standard is whether they can hear the front tyre chattering as the tyre grips at the point of adhesion during emergency stops.
14. Is a bald tyre a liability when braking?
A treadless tyre will quite adequately handle braking stresses on a perfect road surface. The trouble is that perfect road surfaces are more than rare - they're virtually extinct. Tyre tread acts like a broom, sweeping debris, dirt, gravel and water etc off the road surface in order that the tyre can grip the road.
The tread on a sensibly ridden motorcycle can comfortably handle most foreign matter on a road surface - with the possible exception of oil (especially diesel oil), thick mud, and smooth wet paint. But link a bald tyre with foreign matter on the road surface and throw in braking stresses for good measure, and the crash will resound throughout the neighbourhood.
1. Which brake is the most effective?
The front brake is the most effective, giving between 60 & 80% of the bike's stopping power in hard stops, depending upon surface conditions. This is because most of the weight of the bike and rider transfers forward onto the front wheel when the brakes are applied.
A common example of weight transfer is when you trip on a gutter - your feet stop but momentum keeps the top of you going and you fall flat on your face. The weight transfer that takes place under braking on a motorcycle pushes the front wheel onto the ground and makes it grip very well.
2. Is the front wheel likely to skid if you apply the front brake hard?
No. The front wheel is likely to skid uncontrollably and bring you down only if you jam the front brake on hard. If you apply the front brake in a staged (progressive) process, the front wheel may skid but that skid is normally quite controllable.
3. Is the rear wheel likely to skid if you apply the brakes hard?
With most of the weight being on the front wheel, the rear wheel tends to be light under braking and will therefore lock up and skid very easily.
4. How do you control a rear wheel skid?
Control of a rear wheel skid is easy. Just keep your eyes up to the horizon and look where you WANT to go (not necessarily where you are actually going) and the bike will skid in a controllable manner with a minimum of fishtailing.
Basic and advanced braking techniques are best learnt under controlled conditions rather than when a truck pulls out on you! Your local motorcycle school will run a fun braking exercise session for you and some mates if you care to call the school and arrange it.
5. Is braking a natural skill?
Braking, as with any riding skill, is a learned skill, not a natural one. This means you must practice the correct braking skills enough to make them an instinctive reaction before you can be sure that you will do the right things in an emergency. Overseas research has shown that, because of panic overpowering the rider's conscious reactions, nearly a third of all riders do absolutely nothing in an accident situation: they don't even apply the brakes!
If, however, your high level braking skills are so well learnt that they are instinctive, you will do it right, no matter what the situation. However, this requires you to do a lot of high level braking skill practice, the skills will not come with normal everyday riding.
6. Is there a special braking technique that ensures that a rider will get the best out of a motorcycle's brakes?
Yes. The process is called STAGED BRAKING and it involves the rider applying the motorcycle's brakes in a staged process. This gives the rider predictable, progressive braking.
7. In an emergency do we concentrate on using staged braking on both front and back brakes?
This is a controversial subject. Some experienced riders reckon that, even in an emergency when research has shown that panic tends to decrease your riding skills, they can apply the back brake perfectly with no loss of braking on the front.
Well, research has shown that the average rider can only properly concentrate on the use of one brake in an emergency so, unless you think you're road motorcycling's equivalent of a top motorcycle racer, we would suggest that you concentrate on getting the best out of one brake.
Of the front and rear brake on a motorcycle, the one to concentrate on in an emergency is the front brake because if you get that one wrong, lock it up and don't correct that problem then you're going to crash.
According to the American Motorcycle Safety Foundation, if you try to get the best out of both brakes in an emergency, you will get the best out of neither. The MSF says you can't concentrate FULLY on both brakes at one time. You know your mother's old nag, "You can't concentrate on two things at one time"!
So, to get the best braking, you have to concentrate using either the front or the back brake and, since the front brake gives up to 80% of your braking power and incorrect application is likely to make you fall off, it makes sense to concentrate on the front brake.
The American Motorcycle Safety Foundation teaches their instructors that "in an emergency braking situation you should apply the back brake hard and let the back wheel slide if it wants to. This way you can concentrate on what is happening up front; there's enough to think about in the use of the front brake."
8. So how should I apply the rear brake? Apply it and forget about it. Let the back wheel skid if necessary. Concentrate on using staged braking to harness the superior power of the front brake to save your life.
9. Is Staged Braking difficult to learn?
Given practice, the skill is not difficult to learn. The best way to learn it is to start off with a four stage application of the front brake. Later you can increase the number of stages to make your braking more and more progressive, if you want to.
10.Can you explain four stage braking in practical terms?
To understand four stage braking, think of a rider coming up to a set of lights. Stage One is the force with which he applies the front brake when he sees the lights turn orange some way ahead, in other words, lightly.
At Stage One, the rider is applying the front brake to the point where the brake is just on and slowing the bike down very, very gently to roll to a stop.
Stage Two is the force the rider would use if he was a bit closer to the lights when they turned orange, and he had to make a normal, smooth stop at the lights. So, Stage Two is the firm pull used to bring the bike to a firm, but quiet stop. The rider applies his front brake to Stage One (friction point) before going on to apply to a steady force at Stage Two.
Stage Three. Our rider has dithered about whether to stop for the orange light before deciding he'd better. By this time, he has to stop quite hard to stop. So he applies the front brake to friction point (Stage One), then onto a firm pull (Stage Two) before applying pressure with a strong pull at Stage Three.
Stage Four. The rider very unwisely decides to run the orange only to find, just before he reaches the lights, that they turn red. In this serious situation the rider needs all the braking he's got. So he applies the front brake to friction point, moves onto the firm pull of Stage Two, then to the strong pull of Stage Three, before giving it all he's got at Stage Four.
11. If you "give it all you've got" on the front brake at Stage Four, won't you get front wheel lockup?
Possibly but by using the staged braking process, by the time the tyre gets to the point of locking up at Stage Four, the weight has transferred forward onto the front wheel and any tendency of the front tyre to lose grip is both easily sensed and controlled, unlike a front wheel skid caused by a tyre locking up when the brake is jammed on hard while weight is moving around on the bike under weight transfer.
With correct use of the Four Stage process, controlling a front wheel skid is simply a matter of keeping the wheel steering straight ahead as you relax pressure on the front brake to allow the wheel to revolve again and regain grip.
12. What will happen if the front wheel locks and I don't relax some pressure?
You'll fall off as the wheel will eventually tuck under and the bike (and you) will fall down.
13. How good can you get at emergency braking?
In emergency stops, expert riders are capable of controlling a front wheel skid by releasing pressure on the front brake just enough to get that wheel turning again without actually letting the brake right off. This requires considerable sensitivity on the brakes and the only way you will gain this sort of sensitivity is to practice.
At the NZMSC higher level Megarider sessions, the way the instructors tell if the pupil has reached a suitable standard is whether they can hear the front tyre chattering as the tyre grips at the point of adhesion during emergency stops.
14. Is a bald tyre a liability when braking?
A treadless tyre will quite adequately handle braking stresses on a perfect road surface. The trouble is that perfect road surfaces are more than rare - they're virtually extinct. Tyre tread acts like a broom, sweeping debris, dirt, gravel and water etc off the road surface in order that the tyre can grip the road.
The tread on a sensibly ridden motorcycle can comfortably handle most foreign matter on a road surface - with the possible exception of oil (especially diesel oil), thick mud, and smooth wet paint. But link a bald tyre with foreign matter on the road surface and throw in braking stresses for good measure, and the crash will resound throughout the neighbourhood.
D
dbmg
Guest
Part 2:::
15. How should I brake on slippery and loose surfaces.
Carefully but not timidly. The secret to good braking on poor surfaces is observation. If you know what's under your wheels you can tailor your braking to the surface.
So, keep an eye on the road surface. If you cross a slippery surface under strong braking the front wheel may lock. This is why riders who brake late and hard for orange or red lights often spill off - into the middle of the intersection. The fall occurs because the rider fails to ease the front brake as the front wheel crosses the white line that crosses the lanes at the edge of the intersection. Then the front wheel breaks loose under braking on the slippery surface, the rider panics and freezes, and he and his bike head groundwards...
The basic requirements for braking on a loose surface such as gravel are the same as those applying to braking on a sealed surface. The difference is that you must observe the requirements more strictly on gravel.
You must brake in plenty of time, preferably brake while upright and in a straight line (any braking while leaned over in gravel is extremely hazardous), use both brakes very progressively, carefully interpret the noise from the front and rear tyre while braking to detect and counteract any wheel lock-up, know your road surface, and take particular care when braking on gradients, inclines, and heavy cambers.
15. How should I brake on slippery and loose surfaces.
Carefully but not timidly. The secret to good braking on poor surfaces is observation. If you know what's under your wheels you can tailor your braking to the surface.
So, keep an eye on the road surface. If you cross a slippery surface under strong braking the front wheel may lock. This is why riders who brake late and hard for orange or red lights often spill off - into the middle of the intersection. The fall occurs because the rider fails to ease the front brake as the front wheel crosses the white line that crosses the lanes at the edge of the intersection. Then the front wheel breaks loose under braking on the slippery surface, the rider panics and freezes, and he and his bike head groundwards...
The basic requirements for braking on a loose surface such as gravel are the same as those applying to braking on a sealed surface. The difference is that you must observe the requirements more strictly on gravel.
You must brake in plenty of time, preferably brake while upright and in a straight line (any braking while leaned over in gravel is extremely hazardous), use both brakes very progressively, carefully interpret the noise from the front and rear tyre while braking to detect and counteract any wheel lock-up, know your road surface, and take particular care when braking on gradients, inclines, and heavy cambers.
The4opps1
Junior Member
Had the same experience coming from a Vulcan 750 to an Ultra so you are not thefirst to have this happen. With the smaller bikes, if they start to tip, you can usually "wrestle" them back up. With an 800+pound Ultra, unless you have just qualified for a "strongest man" competition, you are outta luck. The advice about using the rear brake is good and solid. Keep in mind, also, that a lot of this breaks down into two categories: physics and mental. The physics is what it is. The mental you have control over. It took me about 500 miles before i got "used" to my Ultra. About another 1500 before I started to feel comfortable. And you're right, in a straightline, they are just like any other bike. It's at low speed when the old high school physics lesson of "centrifugal/centrepital" forces takes over. Accept it, when they are at low speed, they want to fall over; or at least feel like they are falling over. Another thing I found, practicing turns and stops at low speed builds your confidence. Take the opportunity to try that. In closing, what did it for me was an encounter, one day, at my local WaWa gas station. I'm filling up the Ultra in the midst of a slew of cages and trucks, when some guy who had to be 80, if he was a day, pulls next to me in a brand new Ultra Classic. What caught me was that he wasn't a big guy, but he piloted that machine like it was a mo-ped. Naturally, we got to talking, and he told me this was his 6th Ultra. "Wouldn't have any other bike" was his comment. I thought: "If he can ride with that little effort, so can I"....Good luck, and enjoy
As others have said..Do NOT feel like an idiot. I would bet that most of us have done or almost done what you described. It took me one season to get real comfortable with stops. Even now, after having an ultra 3 years, I feel somewhat uneasy coming to a stop or heavy stop and go traffic. Alone, I have no concerns. With my wife on the back, I get that twinge of unease.
I went to parking lots to practice. Spent a few hours keeping totally OFF the front brake the last few feet of stops. Gradually, I started to 'baby' the front brake as well during stops. I MUST keep that front wheel straight as I come to a stop..I MUST keep my head up and not look down. I must 'plan' my stops before I get there. It's different than any other bike I've ever owned over my 62 years. With all others, I could wrestle the bike up if I messed up a little. Not this one. Mine has been 'down' 3 times. Each time, I knew exactly what I did wrong. Each time, the bike was at a dead stop or very close to dead stop. Each time, it went over in slow motion with me swearing at myself for allowing it to happen.
If you haven't, buy the Jerry Paladino " Ride Like A Pro" DVD...a ton of knowledge can be had with that DVD. It helped me greatly.
Practice in parking lots ( you can wrap the crash bars with a split garden hose and tape while you practice and, perhaps some taped cloth or? at the tips of the front fairing..just in case)
Hang in there...it's a great motorcycle! You'll love everything about it and will become comfortable in most all situations.
================================================
a few other thoughts that , I know, will help me. I'm rather short at 5'7". I just got my boots back from having 1/4 " added.. I'm also going to look into the 'Reach Seat" ( Harley brand). It's supposed to lower me an inch or so plus put me forward by an inch or so. At a stop, I point my feet outward. Being short, I find it gives me more of a 'feet down' spread.
Last edited by a moderator:
reidsworks
Member
Me too... I dropped mine the second time backing out of the garage on slippery grass. Went to take off and the rear wheel lost traction and simply slid sideways. Bike is way to heavy to hold up so layed it over on the crash bars and mufflers. Funny thing was it never went all the way down and no damage minus the clots of mud jammed under the footboards.
I moved up from a Honda Shadow Sabre. Night and day different for weight balance etc. Everything about the ride is different. So..... the best advice you should take is practice practice practice along with go take a Motorcycle riding course. Both will force you to relearn how to ride. Did I say.... Practice Practice Practice. Be safe my friend and enjoy your Harley.
I moved up from a Honda Shadow Sabre. Night and day different for weight balance etc. Everything about the ride is different. So..... the best advice you should take is practice practice practice along with go take a Motorcycle riding course. Both will force you to relearn how to ride. Did I say.... Practice Practice Practice. Be safe my friend and enjoy your Harley.