Some Theory on Ion Knock Sub-System
- Thread starter Hoople
- Start date
Hoople
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Rich, I modified my curves by just leaving the progression of the curve alone but capped off the max to a value of 36 degrees. I know it will hurt my fuel mileage but the only way you can really get it perfect across the board is with a lot of testing and to me it is not worth the effort.
My mileage is 32 city and about 38 highway which to me is plenty. My cage gets 20 mpg so if I get in the 30's on the bike I am fine with it. I am not a mileage chaser.
I have my Ion software disabled, and I am running a fixed 5K ohm NGK plug and I like how the bike performs. No knock at all and it pulls stronger than before (seat of pants only).
You mean those crazy spark timing number?... Yes for mileage and emissions.
The easiest way to squeeze every last drop with low emissions is to spin the timing.
No truly performance motor would be able to eat that much timing. Peak combustion pressure should take place at around 7 degrees AFTER TDC. With that crank angle Torque can be applied when it counts.
Now 7 + 45 is a bit much. (pulling trigger ahead of bird in order to make bullet hit bird.)
My mileage is 32 city and about 38 highway which to me is plenty. My cage gets 20 mpg so if I get in the 30's on the bike I am fine with it. I am not a mileage chaser.
I have my Ion software disabled, and I am running a fixed 5K ohm NGK plug and I like how the bike performs. No knock at all and it pulls stronger than before (seat of pants only).
You mean those crazy spark timing number?... Yes for mileage and emissions.
The easiest way to squeeze every last drop with low emissions is to spin the timing.
No truly performance motor would be able to eat that much timing. Peak combustion pressure should take place at around 7 degrees AFTER TDC. With that crank angle Torque can be applied when it counts.
Now 7 + 45 is a bit much. (pulling trigger ahead of bird in order to make bullet hit bird.)
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If the spark is advanced that far, are they not trying to start the burn early to use up a larger % of fuel IE economy and emissions. Knock comes from fuel detonating befor the spark ignites the fuel. How could you ever have a detonation with that much advance. It makes sense to me that less retard would increase the power with a slight loss in economy as in the previous post. Could it be that the sensor is only trying to detect fule ignited too early causing some BTDC push back that sounds like a knock?
Hoople
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Sorry about that. I am actually lumping detonation, pre-ignition, pinging & knocking all into 1 big category which is incorrect.
What I am focused on is 1 thing only. And that is having ignition of the fuel so early in crank angle, that the peak combustion pressure happens BEFORE TDC and not AFTER TDC where it should be. That usually results in an engine knocking sound I call detonation but there is probably a better word to define it.
I have had engines that were so hot running with such poor fuel, that you could pull the plug wire completely off, give it throttle and it would continue to run. I guess that is not detonation but actually pre-ignition. Almost like a glow plug engine.
What I am focused on is 1 thing only. And that is having ignition of the fuel so early in crank angle, that the peak combustion pressure happens BEFORE TDC and not AFTER TDC where it should be. That usually results in an engine knocking sound I call detonation but there is probably a better word to define it.
I have had engines that were so hot running with such poor fuel, that you could pull the plug wire completely off, give it throttle and it would continue to run. I guess that is not detonation but actually pre-ignition. Almost like a glow plug engine.
You mean those crazy spark timing number?... Yes for mileage and emissions.
The easiest way to squeeze every last drop with low emissions is to spin the timing.
No truly performance motor would be able to eat that much timing. Peak combustion pressure should take place at around 7 degrees AFTER TDC. With that crank angle Torque can be applied when it counts.
Now 7 + 45 is a bit much. (pulling trigger ahead of bird in order to make bullet hit bird.)
yes sir...gosh you would think there would be an easer way...
Hoople
Account Removed
Yes there are easier ways. The problem is the easy ways are all uses up. The pressure is on to do something. The MoCo has an air cooled engine and garbage for fuel. I bet they would love to put Cats on all bikes but that adds to cost. They would love to have constant engine temperature but doing that is even more expensive. They can't have any Zinc in the oil. They can't run high compression. R&D is expensive. The bikes are already expensive. The EPA does not know when to quit....
Here is an easier way.. Buy off the politicians.
J
Jack Klarich
Guest
Seems to work for the oil industry.:bigsmiley20:
This helps me understand why you would advance timing to reduce detonation.
Found info on web.
Common problem areas are sharp edges of metal either on the piston or in the combustion chamber. For instance, if the piston has a valve relief cut into it, there is usually a very defined edge that the cutting tool leaves. This sharp edge is greatly prone to super heating and will actually retain enough heat that it will start to glow. If the fuel should hit this glowing edge either prior to the lighting of the spark plug or even after ignition, it is very likely that another flame front will initiate. If this unintended ignition occurs very early in the compression stroke, then the piston will be forced up against the increased pressure of the burning gas and will result in a form of abnormal combustion referred to as pre-ignition. When this happens, the end result, if severe enough, is that the connecting rods bend. Turbocharged engines are specifically prone this. Carbon deposits that build up in the combustion chamber or on the piston top will have the same effect, along with the decreased volume at TDC, which in turn raises the compression ratio.
Basically, spark plug gap ion sensing uses an electronic box placed between the ignition trigger and the coil (just like a CDI unit). The box analyzes the ion make-up of the combustion chamber though a standard spark plug gap (actually tests show a "revolutionary new" surface discharge unit w/ large gap and good durability- just like stock rotary plugs- works best for this). There is a very recognizable ion make-up present in the combustion chamber if the circumstances for detonation exist.
Up to now, in race cars (and production cars that used this feature) the ion sensing box simply stopped the ignition trigger signal from firing the coil. This was not suitable for catalyzed cars as the unburned hydrocarbons would shorten the catalytic life (and these are expensive and warranted for 10 years in USA- hence lower USA RX-8 HP figures and such to save manufacturers $$$ replacing cats).
Now, a simple strobe unit is used in conjunction w/ the ion sensing box to delay the ignition trigger signal to the coil so that it combusts (late) to keep the cats happy
KDR may be able to patent the ion sensing device as it pertains to rotary ignition since they are using the new "late burn" idea w/ out having to use the recently patented ion sensing coupled w/ strobe delay.
Their patents would most likely revolve around having trailing split toggle directly off of leading ignition signal (like Haltech) and cutting leading spark while still enabling trailing
Found info on web.
Common problem areas are sharp edges of metal either on the piston or in the combustion chamber. For instance, if the piston has a valve relief cut into it, there is usually a very defined edge that the cutting tool leaves. This sharp edge is greatly prone to super heating and will actually retain enough heat that it will start to glow. If the fuel should hit this glowing edge either prior to the lighting of the spark plug or even after ignition, it is very likely that another flame front will initiate. If this unintended ignition occurs very early in the compression stroke, then the piston will be forced up against the increased pressure of the burning gas and will result in a form of abnormal combustion referred to as pre-ignition. When this happens, the end result, if severe enough, is that the connecting rods bend. Turbocharged engines are specifically prone this. Carbon deposits that build up in the combustion chamber or on the piston top will have the same effect, along with the decreased volume at TDC, which in turn raises the compression ratio.
Basically, spark plug gap ion sensing uses an electronic box placed between the ignition trigger and the coil (just like a CDI unit). The box analyzes the ion make-up of the combustion chamber though a standard spark plug gap (actually tests show a "revolutionary new" surface discharge unit w/ large gap and good durability- just like stock rotary plugs- works best for this). There is a very recognizable ion make-up present in the combustion chamber if the circumstances for detonation exist.
Up to now, in race cars (and production cars that used this feature) the ion sensing box simply stopped the ignition trigger signal from firing the coil. This was not suitable for catalyzed cars as the unburned hydrocarbons would shorten the catalytic life (and these are expensive and warranted for 10 years in USA- hence lower USA RX-8 HP figures and such to save manufacturers $$$ replacing cats).
Now, a simple strobe unit is used in conjunction w/ the ion sensing box to delay the ignition trigger signal to the coil so that it combusts (late) to keep the cats happy
KDR may be able to patent the ion sensing device as it pertains to rotary ignition since they are using the new "late burn" idea w/ out having to use the recently patented ion sensing coupled w/ strobe delay.
Their patents would most likely revolve around having trailing split toggle directly off of leading ignition signal (like Haltech) and cutting leading spark while still enabling trailing