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She knocks!

I thought this may happen, The compensator issue in this thread above was somebody elses issue. They addded on to my original thread. Having said that, I have never had a compensator issue at least as of yet. Mine is an '03 and believe that was pre comp nut issue. I do in fact have a Hayden in the primary. I couldn't classify this as anything but a knock. It is well beyond "tick". It is bad enough that if you put a stethoscope on anything, you can hear it. Probably including the rear tire. Even my wife came out of the house and said "that doesnt sound good". It is definitely heat related, I can let it sit for an hour, fire back up and once it starts up to temp. the noise comes back. Does the Bellville spring pack come from the dealer or another source? Thanks Dolt.
 
Bodeen,

I have gone back and read your OP. 10K miles on a newly built 98" top end with SE cam plate/pump which points me away from the cam chest which you say you have checked and found AOK. It is impossible to diagnose the noise without hearing it but describing it as a "knock" points to several things.none of which would be the valve train with the exception of a poorly adjusted pushrod. Lifters will "tick" but a pushrod that is loose enough will sound like a "knock". but it easily recognized as a loose pushrod. Are you sure a push rod hasn't "unadjusted" a bit?

A loose compensator will cause a knock as will a worn rod or main bearing. Piston slap could be described as a knock but piston slap would present cold and diminish as the motor heats up. If the crank How many miles on the crank? Have you checked crank run out?When idling, pull the plug wire from each cylinder, one at a time of course, and see if the knock changes. If it does, that would indicate a rod bearing issue.

I am still focused on the primary and have no confidence in the Hayden hardware; seen to many of them go bad. How many miles on the Hayden unit? When shifting into 1st gear after a cold start, how pronounced is the "clunk"?

Remember that the torque procedure for the '03 models changed from 150-165 ft.lbs to 75 ft.lb., mark the cover and turn another 45*-50*. The left crank bearing changed from Timken to roller in '03 so the torque procedure for the comp nut changed as well. The comp nut coming loose was a common ailment in the early models. The MoCo recognized the issue and offered shims to resolve the issue but until the shims were available, shaving the comp nut was the only way to resolve the issue.

First thing I would do would be to do the plug test above and if no change, focus on the compensator. Shave the comp nut .030"-.040" and reinstall the OEM chain tensioner, adjust chain, ride and see what happens. If the knock still presents, the Bellville spring could have lost some tension if the unit is a high mileage unit. Unfortunately, I don't believe the spring is available as a separate piece and the complete cover with spring has to be purchased and it't not cheap; about $150 from an online discount dealer IIRC.
 
Bodeen,

I have gone back and read your OP. 10K miles on a newly built 98" top end with SE cam plate/pump which points me away from the cam chest which you say you have checked and found AOK. It is impossible to diagnose the noise without hearing it but describing it as a "knock" points to several things.none of which would be the valve train with the exception of a poorly adjusted pushrod. Lifters will "tick" but a pushrod that is loose enough will sound like a "knock". but it easily recognized as a loose pushrod. Are you sure a push rod hasn't "unadjusted" a bit?

A loose compensator will cause a knock as will a worn rod or main bearing. Piston slap could be described as a knock but piston slap would present cold and diminish as the motor heats up. If the crank How many miles on the crank? Have you checked crank run out?When idling, pull the plug wire from each cylinder, one at a time of course, and see if the knock changes. If it does, that would indicate a rod bearing issue.

I am still focused on the primary and have no confidence in the Hayden hardware; seen to many of them go bad. How many miles on the Hayden unit? When shifting into 1st gear after a cold start, how pronounced is the "clunk"?

Remember that the torque procedure for the '03 models changed from 150-165 ft.lbs to 75 ft.lb., mark the cover and turn another 45*-50*. The left crank bearing changed from Timken to roller in '03 so the torque procedure for the comp nut changed as well. The comp nut coming loose was a common ailment in the early models. The MoCo recognized the issue and offered shims to resolve the issue but until the shims were available, shaving the comp nut was the only way to resolve the issue.

First thing I would do would be to do the plug test above and if no change, focus on the compensator. Shave the comp nut .030"-.040" and reinstall the OEM chain tensioner, adjust chain, ride and see what happens. If the knock still presents, the Bellville spring could have lost some tension if the unit is a high mileage unit. Unfortunately, I don't believe the spring is available as a separate piece and the complete cover with spring has to be purchased and it't not cheap; about $150 from an online discount dealer IIRC.

Got the motor up to knocking temp and pulled plug wires as suggested. No discernible difference in the knock except its frequency due to change in idle speed.
Crank and compensator have ~50k. Pulled primary cover and inspected Hayden and compensator. Torque on nut was good. Both look good. My '03 touring manual still has the 150ftpd torque procedure and thats what it has been getting every time it has been off. Didn't really find anything in the manual about compensator inspection or tests. Pics attached. It is still apart but my feeling is its not the comp or primary. I may put it back together and check PR's and such this weekend. After that it maybe on Craigslist as a used boat anchor! Lol..

IMAG0645.jpg IMAG0646.jpg
 
Use the correct torque procedure on the comp nut when it goes back together; the manual is wrong. Hearing the noise would be helpful; can you post a video? Have you run a compression or leak down test? Not something one would normally do after a top end rebuild but, why not? No knock for 40K miles but 10K miles after a top end rebuild, the knock presents.

I am still not convinced that with 50K miles on the compensator that it is not the source of the knock. I wish you could get your hands on a comp cover with low miles so you could verify that the tension in the Bellville springs was up to spec or a solid comp sprocket. I also wish you would replace the Hayden adjustor with the OEM adjustor to eliminate the possibility that the Hayden unit is performing as it should at operating temps.

Have you examined the splines on the crank and n the comp cover? I can't tell from the pics but if the comp torque has been loose and/or the Bellville springs weak, worn splines could be the source of the knock. Are the Bellville springs tight in the cover? Measure the uncompressed depth of the springs; if less than .650", it's bad. I would also shave the comp nut at least .030"; .050" is better. If the comp nut is bottoming out, the Bellville springs are not being totally compressed. Another fix for weak springs would be to find another comp cover, rob a spring from the spring pack and add it to your spring pack. JMHO but I don't think you have eliminated the compensator as the source of the knock.;)
 
As long as the primary cover is off, get it up to temp and see if you can eliminate the comp as the source?
 
Use the correct torque procedure on the comp nut when it goes back together; the manual is wrong. Hearing the noise would be helpful; can you post a video? Have you run a compression or leak down test? Not something one would normally do after a top end rebuild but, why not? No knock for 40K miles but 10K miles after a top end rebuild, the knock presents.

I am still not convinced that with 50K miles on the compensator that it is not the source of the knock. I wish you could get your hands on a comp cover with low miles so you could verify that the tension in the Bellville springs was up to spec or a solid comp sprocket. I also wish you would replace the Hayden adjustor with the OEM adjustor to eliminate the possibility that the Hayden unit is performing as it should at operating temps.

Have you examined the splines on the crank and n the comp cover? I can't tell from the pics but if the comp torque has been loose and/or the Bellville springs weak, worn splines could be the source of the knock. Are the Bellville springs tight in the cover? Measure the uncompressed depth of the springs; if less than .650", it's bad. I would also shave the comp nut at least .030"; .050" is better. If the comp nut is bottoming out, the Bellville springs are not being totally compressed. Another fix for weak springs would be to find another comp cover, rob a spring from the spring pack and add it to your spring pack. JMHO but I don't think you have eliminated the compensator as the source of the knock.;)

No video until I can get the primary back together, I wish I had a good comp. cover too but none around I would trust. The splines all look really good to me. Close up of cover attached. Comp. had never loosened on me and nearly all the miles are mine. Measured springs sitting on the bench between the surfaces marked in red. I come up with right at .640 all the way around. Looks like a new comp cover w/ springs part# 40384-91 can be had for $135. I assume shaving the comp. nut off is at the very inboard end?
 

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As long as the primary cover is off, get it up to temp and see if you can eliminate the comp as the source?
I did consider it until I realized all the fluid slung all over the garage. Now that it has been sitting a couple days, it may not be so bad...
 
No video until I can get the primary back together, I wish I had a good comp. cover too but none around I would trust. The splines all look really good to me. Close up of cover attached. Comp. had never loosened on me and nearly all the miles are mine. Measured springs sitting on the bench between the surfaces marked in red. I come up with right at .640 all the way around. Looks like a new comp cover w/ springs part# 40384-91 can be had for $135. I assume shaving the comp. nut off is at the very inboard end?

How about the splines on the crank; do they look good as well? .640" is close but does show some weakness.

Never mind that the comp nut has never come loose; still doesn't mean that it is not bottoming out on the crank. If it is bottoming out on the crank, the Bellville spring pack is not getting fully compressed and if the spring pack is weak; the problem is exacerbated. Yes, removing material from the comp should be from the crank end. Any machine shop can trim the compensator.

Mind you, I am not saying for certain that the compensator is the source of the knock but it is a common source of he symptom that should be eliminated.;)
 
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