x1rider
Member
Yes, I tested both plugs with a vice-grip grounded to the headbolt and there is spark (got a major jolt through my arm to convince me that I had spark).
New 124" build: no response from injectors
- Thread starter x1rider
- Start date
Yes, I tested both plugs with a vice-grip grounded to the headbolt and there is spark (got a major jolt through my arm to convince me that I had spark).
Hoople
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I have never tried it, but I would guess an ordinary fuel injector noid light would work on our system. If you have a scope you could view the ground shot coming from the ECM just by probing the two injector leads right at the injector. You would see a "low" each time the injector fired along with the ms pulse width if one was present.
x1rider
Member
Is a fuel injector noid light like a test light? If it takes 12v to click the injector open, my test light should light up when I probe each pin in the plug right (unless it's so fast that the light doesn't have time to go on)?
I looked at my DataMaster log which displays the injector BPW and both stay at 0 ms.
As far as I know, the injector activity is controlled by the ECM controlling the ground input (I guess power stays on and the ECM pulses the ground). Maybe if the ECM ground is not good, this is what is causing the problem?
I've been raking my head over this for a few days now. The EFI system all appears normal, except no injector activity.
Hoople
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I am only familiar with Delphi mapping and not TTS so bear with me. The Delphi firmware does have a separate "Cranking Fuel" map outside of the "Running Fuel Map". Would it be possible that the values in your TTS map are set "0" or some off the wall value.?
The whole thing just makes no sense. Unless your fuel pressure is near zero, or both fuel injector channels in the ECM are blown, it should attempt to fire off a cylinder.
I could be of more help with more straight forward answers if your bike was completely factory stock. I just don't know how the TTS interacts with the Delphi system and how it intercepts the signal.
Not really. The Noid light is really a neon bulb which requires 80 or so volts to flash. It's flash voltage is generated by the collapsing of the magnetic field in the injector. The injector "must" actually open and close to get the peak inverse voltage required to trigger a noid. Not 100% reliable but a lot more than a 12 volt test light. Since the noid is neon, it will flash quickly and you can see each fire or trigger from the ECM at low RPM..
The whole thing just makes no sense. Unless your fuel pressure is near zero, or both fuel injector channels in the ECM are blown, it should attempt to fire off a cylinder.
I could be of more help with more straight forward answers if your bike was completely factory stock. I just don't know how the TTS interacts with the Delphi system and how it intercepts the signal.
Not really. The Noid light is really a neon bulb which requires 80 or so volts to flash. It's flash voltage is generated by the collapsing of the magnetic field in the injector. The injector "must" actually open and close to get the peak inverse voltage required to trigger a noid. Not 100% reliable but a lot more than a 12 volt test light. Since the noid is neon, it will flash quickly and you can see each fire or trigger from the ECM at low RPM..
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x1rider
Member
No worries, I really appreciate your input.
Here is a picture of my cranking fuel map.
The TTS does not really modify the stock signal, it completely rewrites the ECM program.
I will check if I can get my hands on a noid light.
I think I will check continuity between the ECM ground pin and the ground itself. I'll also check continuity between the - side of the injector connector and the ECM injector pins (23/28) to see if there is any interference there.
That's the weirdest thing, of the three, only the injectors don't work.
Here is a picture of my cranking fuel map.
The TTS does not really modify the stock signal, it completely rewrites the ECM program.
I will check if I can get my hands on a noid light.
I think I will check continuity between the ECM ground pin and the ground itself. I'll also check continuity between the - side of the injector connector and the ECM injector pins (23/28) to see if there is any interference there.
That's the weirdest thing, of the three, only the injectors don't work.
Hoople
Account Removed
I tried to purchase the Harley fuel pressure adapter but it is not available. Jims makes 1 but it is really up there in price. This one still cost $40 to make but I saw no way out. It is a "Must Have" tool sooner or later.
Yes, that is exactly how it is done. The ECM sends a ground shot to complete the circuit. The fact it is common to both injectors is the strange part. I have a lot of confidence in Delphi quality and products in general. At this point I am still not sure if it is a software or hardware issue since the software has been over-mapped. The Cranking fuel map values look fine to me. I just can't believe the ECM is blown and even if fuel pressure was Zero, you said the software logs show the injector pulse width as being "0". The thing is we just don't know how that "0" value is determined.
Yes, that is exactly how it is done. The ECM sends a ground shot to complete the circuit. The fact it is common to both injectors is the strange part. I have a lot of confidence in Delphi quality and products in general. At this point I am still not sure if it is a software or hardware issue since the software has been over-mapped. The Cranking fuel map values look fine to me. I just can't believe the ECM is blown and even if fuel pressure was Zero, you said the software logs show the injector pulse width as being "0". The thing is we just don't know how that "0" value is determined.
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x1rider
Member
I'll try to hook up my fuel line to a fuel gauge, I won't get the pressure while the bike is running but at least I'll have an idea at what pressure the pump is priming.
I got a message from Steve Cole, he's behind TTS and knows the HD EFI system very well. He said to put the stock calibration back in the ECM and see if the bike will at least start, then remap with a modified map. I'll try that after I check the integrity of all the wiring.
The "0" value is the BPW which I would assume means the injectors are not cycling at all
Hoople
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That is true but the question that arises is HOW the system determines pulse width. It can be formulated by many methods. I have seen some systems determine pulse width by measuring the voltage drop across a load resistor (current). Or it also can look at the duty time & logic state of a pre-driver IC to the final triac.
If it was calculated by direct current draw, it would indicate to me that some hardware failure has happened. (open injector, bad connector, open wire, blown triac, no B+ etc etc)
On the other hand if it looked at the logic state of a pre-driver and said the pulse width was "0", it opens the possibilities of software telling the system to run at "0". I would think there must be conditions within the firmware that must be met before the injectors will be instructed to open.
I can get carried away at times. I am not try to make something more complex than it really is, but just saying there are different ways to get to the same answer.
It sounds like you have a good plan with putting the system as close to factory stock as you can until you get it started. That's the right way to approach it.
x1rider
Member
One more question, can someone please tell me where on the frame the ECM is grounded to (Right Clean Ground)? Thank you
By all means, do not hesitate to make it as complex as it needs to be, it only contributes to give me a better picture of what is going on.
The BPW "0" value I'm referring to is from logging the bike, so it's basically what the ECM sees happening, not what it is telling the bike to do (I don't know if it makes sense). What I'm trying to say is that the "0" is not the program telling the bike to set the BPW at "0", it's a recording that the BPW was at "0".
What baffles me is that I'm not getting any DTC from it.
By all means, do not hesitate to make it as complex as it needs to be, it only contributes to give me a better picture of what is going on.
The BPW "0" value I'm referring to is from logging the bike, so it's basically what the ECM sees happening, not what it is telling the bike to do (I don't know if it makes sense). What I'm trying to say is that the "0" is not the program telling the bike to set the BPW at "0", it's a recording that the BPW was at "0".
What baffles me is that I'm not getting any DTC from it.
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Hoople
Account Removed
The fact that you got an error code of "injector low" when the injector connector was disconnected means the ECM is seeing the B+ coming from the start relay for the injectors. (which is Good). The "no combustion" error code is derived from current flow through the ion sensor in the coil. Strangely enough, I thought that circuit was only looked at during higher RPM and not during cranking so why you received that error code I do not know. It contradicts how I understand the no combustion circuit to work.
The fact that Both injectors do not work and fail in the same way is good and leans you on the side that the ECM is OK. It would be worse if you were at this point and only 1 injector was failing to open.
Also, just to let you know my bike is not throttle by wire. I know nothing about the set conditions that may have to be met for lift off to take place. I am sure there are a set of rules (more rules) and values that must be met and they are different than non TBW. For instance, twisting the grip during starting means nothing for TBW users. The ECM is in charge and will give the engine the amount of air it wants and not what you want.
I do have 2009 schematics and can look up the ground question but need to know what a Street Glide letters are.
The fact that Both injectors do not work and fail in the same way is good and leans you on the side that the ECM is OK. It would be worse if you were at this point and only 1 injector was failing to open.
Also, just to let you know my bike is not throttle by wire. I know nothing about the set conditions that may have to be met for lift off to take place. I am sure there are a set of rules (more rules) and values that must be met and they are different than non TBW. For instance, twisting the grip during starting means nothing for TBW users. The ECM is in charge and will give the engine the amount of air it wants and not what you want.
I do have 2009 schematics and can look up the ground question but need to know what a Street Glide letters are.