need advice for Top End maintenance

[fabrozor]

Hello,

I think i have the "2005 valve seal stem" problem on my 2005 FLHTi rear cylinder.

I'm thinking about droping the both heads and cylinder to :
- replace valve seal stem with the orange 18094-02A
- remove and clean the valves
- remove and clean the piston's heads
- change the piston's rings

My first questions are :
- Which good quality "gasket kit" do you recommand (if possible with the 18094-02A in it) ?
- Are there advice you could give to me for this rebuild knowing what i plan to do (see above) ?

Thank you.

ps : i'm not a top skilled mechanic pro.

 

[Chopper]

Have done valve seals on a couple of 05 police bikes, the seals were bad from the factory in that year, I'll post the tech tip harley sent out in 05 about the problem. A HD service manual is a must and I would just get the HD top end gasket kit, it has all the up dated gaskets & seals in it and the harley one can't be beat. You might talk to your local dealer about it, they might still warranty it, I would because it was a factory problem and if the factory wouldn't go for it I would do the warranty under DAG (dealer authorized goodwill) the factory gives me $3.000.00 per year to take care of out of warranty problems and I'm at a satellite store, a larger store get quite a bit more. Good luck

View attachment Diagnosing oil consumption.pdf

 

[Jack Klarich]

Dont want to hijack this thread but does this include the umbrella sealsChopper, I had a problem with a 97 FLHT, Jack

 

[Chopper]

Dont want to hijack this thread but does this include the umbrella sealsChopper, I had a problem with a 97 FLHT, Jack

I can't remember a problem with umbrella valves in 97 off top of my head, but if your asking about the DAG money dealerships get, it's totally up to the dealership what they want to warranty with it, they can use it for bikes dating as far back as to the early 80's, whenever they started using the 17 digit vin numbers. It's totally a customer satisfaction thing from Harley Davidson to promote customer satisfaction with their motorcycles given to dealers to use for any defect that was warrantyable while the bike was under factory warranty, but no longer is, the dealer decides, if the it's the right thing do it, that was the moto Harley taught in warranty management class. Unfortunately a few dealers sleep thru that part of the class, but there was the rest of us that went there to learn.

 

[NEWHD74FAN]

Have done valve seals on a couple of 05 police bikes, the seals were bad from the factory in that year, I'll post the tech tip harley sent out in 05 about the problem. A HD service manual is a must and I would just get the HD top end gasket kit, it has all the up dated gaskets & seals in it and the harley one can't be beat. You might talk to your local dealer about it, they might still warranty it, I would because it was a factory problem and if the factory wouldn't go for it I would do the warranty under DAG (dealer authorized goodwill) the factory gives me $3.000.00 per year to take care of out of warranty problems and I'm at a satellite store, a larger store get quite a bit more. Good luck

View attachment 5667

Chopper - Thank you for the information on DAG...and explaining what it is...never knew such a program existed and frankly many HD owners are probably not either. Being a new HD owner of only 2 years it is refreshing to see that customer service had not gone by the way side early on. :s

 

[fabrozor]

Hi chopper,

thank you for your precious answers on the HD gasket kit.

I already saw the "diagnostic oil consuption" .pdf your giving while i read other threads on this subject.
About the waranty thing, i'm afraid here in France where i am, they will not be as friendly as they could be in U.S. but ... i can ask.

I think i would prefer to do it myself because i want to be sure the combustion chamber + valves + top of piston will be cleaned correctly.

The only doubt i have at this state is how will i torke the rear top end screw because there is not enought place to insert the tork tool.

I read also that a more dramatic problem would be the Cam Chain Tensionner that breakout so i think i have to change this in the same time. But in the other threads and forums they propose lots of differents solutions, from
Screamin' Eagle® Hydraulic Cam Chain Tensioner Plate

Upgrade Kit
# 25284-08
= 430 $

Screamin' Eagle® Cam Chain Tensioner Spacer Kit
# 25285-08
= 18 $

to

I just got to the shop and checked prices, I find no increases on the roller chain conversion parts. So I figured all the parts for a complete swap out for '06 parts, added the cam cover gasket, 2 small orings, 1 large oring for the oil pump spigot, and 2 Torrington inner cam bearings and I come up with a total of $458.
The HD kit is $448 so for $10 more you can have a complete conversion instead of HDs half (EDIT) kit.

But i also saw this thread :
http://www.hdtimeline.com/harley_da...in_tensioner_and_bearing_swap.html#post101248
and others.

 

[Chopper]

Fabrozor the way I think I use to reach that rear top screw to torke was using a long snap-on ball allen with my torke wrench, I would also use a drop of 243 loctite on all the hardware and if you can't get to it just feel one of the screws you used a torke wrench on and try and match it by hand, it will be close enough. If you're only doing the top end I would use a HD top end gasket kit, but if you want to do a cam plate up grade, then get the HD cam gasket kit instead (it includes all cam bearings) and all you will need is the two lower box gaskets everything else should be in the cam compartment gasket kit. Be advised that the 05 tensioner set up is not a defective one but the hybrid cam plate & high flow oil pump kit is just a much improved one and if you have enough miles on the bike it's a no brainer to do now. If I was doing it I would have no problem using the HD inner cam bearings that come in the gasket kit, in the earlier days I would not put cams in with out using Torrington inner cam bearings but back then the dividers in HD bearings were plastic, now they use metal instead of plastic, when I was in Milwaukee attending a HD class I had a chance to talk to one of Harleys engineers and asked him why Harley used those cheesy bearings and his reply was that they are more forgiving on cam alignment, so I do have mixed feeling, but have never had a problem with Torrington bearings, they are a quality bearing. Ether way you go sounds like you are going to really enjoy doing it, I would recommend using kits and have a HD manual on hand. Good luck and have fun, that's what it's all about.
:cheers

 

[fabrozor]

Thank you again for that knowledge.

Do you know a "tips" to remove the inner cam bearings and to put the new ones when you don't have the installer/remover tool shown in the following tutorial ? --> HarleyHogs Cam Bearing Install

ps : my Electra is 65000 KM (= 40389 miles)
(my moto-guzzi California-II is 155342 miles ;-) )

(addition to my post above)

When you say :

if you want to do a cam plate up grade, then get the HD cam gasket kit instead (it includes all cam bearings) and all you will need is the two lower box gaskets everything else should be in the cam compartment gasket kit

- i don't anderstand what the "two lower box" is.

- I search "HD cam gasket kit" on google but can't find it.

 

[Chopper]

Only tip I can give you for taking inner cam bearing out or installing with out the proper tool is, Don't do it. There'a a thin lip in the engine case behind the inner cam bearing and if you don't break up that, you will drop rollers into the case where the fly wheels are and spend three life times trying to get them out, or worst, not find them all. Spend the money for the tool or have it done. While your in the engine with 40,000 miles on it, I would also install 4 new HD lifters for sure, and it would be a good time to upgrade the cams also, S/E 203 would work well in your bike, I know, where's it all end, it doesn't, welcome to the wonderful world of Harley Davidson.
Here's a pic of what I was calling a lower rocker box gasket, you will neen two plus the cam gasket kit.

 

[fabrozor]

Hi again,
I'm in contact with Herko who sells a kit with all needed parts and gaskets and George's Garage tools. That seems a confortable solution, even if once again, you have to drop your $$$.
As options, he has Andrews cam (12N like stock, 21N more tork), maybe that's near the SE/203 you're talking about.
Like you do, he recommands to change the lifters.
In fact, in addition to my Valve Seal stem problem, i have the chain cam tensionner problem ;-)
When you say "welcome to the wonderful world of Harley Davidson", i can realise twice what you mean ;-)