Friction modifiers

Discussion in 'Oil' started by booker 2010, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. booker 2010

    booker 2010 Member

    I don't want to start another oil rampage but I have a question.Since Harley doesn't use the same oil for engine and clutch as some foreign bikes do then shouldn't we use oil with friction modifiers in the crankcase?I use Mobil 1 vtwin in mine but wouldn't the regular Mobil1 be better with modifiers or am I thinking backwards.I also use formula + in primary and spectro 6 speed in tranny.
  2. Jack Klarich

    Jack Klarich Guest

    Oil Suggestions For Harleys - Harley Davidson Community The great oil debate rolls on, modern oils have new and improved additive packages for specific applications plain jane automotive oils dont have the additives air cooled engines need your ride you decide
  3. Mad Dog Jim

    Mad Dog Jim Banned

    I wonder just how many synth manufacturers are out there? I bet that of the 50 different brands there is maybe 3 actual manufacturers. Like I bet that J&P doesn't have an oil factory. It's probably Mobile
  4. fin_676

    fin_676 Experienced Member Staff Member Moderator Contributor

    Standard motor oils are formulated to be used in an engine with fairly constant temperature range due to the liquid cooling
    motorcycle oils are formulated to work in a volatile temperature range
    so if your motorcycle is going to run at the same engine heat as your car use the car oil
    as my motorcycles temperature is dependent on the air temperature that they are running in then i will use an air cooled motorcycle specific oil

  5. oldhippie

    oldhippie Senior Member

    It's can be fun and frustrating to decipher yea or nay from opinions on using M1 15w50 vs Vtwin 20w50. The VTwin M1 has only a minute more ZDDP than the 15w50 (except the Canadian bottled 15w50, which doesn't have any). According to Mobil 1 website the 15w50 can be safely used in a Harley. If they can make that statement, they can stand behind it. Whereas, they say their 75w90 gear oil should not be used in the H-D tranny.
    The 15w50 also is suitable for use in diesel engines. As H-D suggests using diesel engine oil in the event you can't find their miracle oils.

    And one other thing to keep in mind: the H-D EG that is famous for the most mileage didn't use so-called "motorcycle engine" specific oils. It used diesel engine oil.

    As for automotive engine oils, they do not specify as being for water-cooled engines only as being for gasoline (and diesel) powered engines.

    My B&S (725cc) engines use 5w30 or 10w30 and are air-cooled and run full throttle when in use.

    There are those that use M1 15w50 and have had no negative side effects from its use.
  6. wilks3

    wilks3 Junior Member

    Friction modifiers are generally used in thinner weight oils to promote better MPG's.
    The thicker oils, 15W50,20W50,50,60 wt, have more of a specific use, higher heat, looser clearances etc. Thats why they don't have friction modifiers in them most of the time.
  7. oldhippie

    oldhippie Senior Member

    Just some info on additives I found at as written by Dr. Dmitri Kopeliovich, founder of SubsTech.

    Additives are substances formulated for improvement of the anti-friction, chemical and physical properties of base oils (mineral, synthetic, vegetable or animal), which results in enhancing the lubricant performance and extending the equipment life.
    Combination of different additives and their quantities are determined by the lubricant type (Engine oils, Gear oils, Hydraulic oils, cutting fluids, Way lubricants, compressor oils etc.) and the specific operating conditions (temperature, loads, machine parts materials, environment). Amount of additives may reach 30%.

    • Friction modifiers
    • Anti-wear additives
    • Extreme pressure (EP) additives
    • Rust and corrosion inhibitors
    • Anti-oxidants
    • Detergents
    • Dispersants
    • Pour point depressants
    • Viscosity index improvers
    • Anti-foaming agents

    Friction modifiers -Friction modifiers reduce coefficient of friction, resulting in less fuel consumption. Crystal structure of most of friction modifiers consists of molecular platelets (layers), which may easily slide over each other.

    The following Solid lubricants are used as friction modifiers:
    • Graphite;
    • Molybdenum disulfide;
    • Boron nitride (BN);
    • Tungsten disulfide (WS2);
    • Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE).

    Anti-wear additives - Anti-wear additives prevent direct metal-to-metal contact between the machine parts when the oil film is broken down. Use of anti-wear additives results in longer machine life due to higher wear and score resistance of the components. The mechanism of anti-wear additives: the additive reacts with the metal on the part surface and forms a film, which may slide over the friction surface.
    The following materials are used as anti-wear additives:
    • Zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP);
    • Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP);
    • Tricresylphosphate (TCP).

    Extreme pressure (EP) additives - Extreme pressure (EP) additives prevent seizure conditions caused by direct metal-to-metal contact between the parts under high loads. The mechanism of EP additives is similar to that of anti-wear additive: the additive substance form a coating on the part surface. This coating protects the part surface from a direct contact with other part, decreasing wear and scoring.
    The following materials are used as extra pressure (EP) additives:
    • Chlorinated paraffins;
    • Sulphurized fats;
    • Esters;
    • Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP);
    • Molybdenum disulfide;

    Rust and corrosion inhibitors - Rust and Corrosion inhibitors, which form a barrier film on the substrate surface reducing the corrosion rate. The inhibitors also absorb on the metal surface forming a film protecting the part from the attack of oxygen, water and other chemically active substances.
    The following materials are used as rust and corrosion inhibitors:
    • Alkaline compounds;
    • Organic acids;
    • Esters;
    • Amino-acid derivatives.

    Anti-oxidants - Mineral oils react with oxygen of air forming organic acids. The oxidation reaction products cause increase of the oil viscosity, formation of sludge and varnish, corrosion of metallic parts and foaming. Anti-oxidants inhibit the oxidation process of oils. Most of lubricants contain anti-oxidants.

    The following materials are used as anti-oxidants:
    • Zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP);
    • Alkyl sulfides;
    • Aromatic sulfides;
    • Aromatic amines;
    • Hindered phenols.

    Detergents - Detergents neutralize strong acids present in the lubricant (for example sulfuric and nitric acid produced in internal combustion engines as a result of combustion process) and remove the neutralization products from the metal surface. Detergents also form a film on the part surface preventing high temperature deposition of sludge and varnish. Detergents are commonly added to Engine oils.
    Phenolates, sulphonates and phosphonates of alkaline and alkaline-earth elements, such as calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), sodium (Na) or Ba (barium), are used as detergents in lubricants.

    Dispersants - Dispersants keep the foreign particles present in a lubricant in a dispersed form (finely divided and uniformly dispersed throughout the oil).
    The foreign particles are sludge and varnish, dirt, products of oxidation, water etc.
    Long chain hydrocarbons succinimides, such as polyisobutylene succinimides are used as dispersants in lubricants.

    Pour point depressants - Pour point is the lowest temperature, at which the oil may flow. Wax crystals formed in mineral oils at low temperatures reduce their fluidity.
    Pour point depressant inhibit formation and agglomeration of wax particles keeping the lubricant fluid at low temperatures. Co-polymers of polyalkyl methacrylates are used as pour point depressant in lubricants.

    Viscosity index improvers - Viscosity of oils sharply decreases at high temperatures. Low viscosity causes decrease of the oil lubrication ability. Viscosity index improvers keep the viscosity at acceptable levels, which provide stable oil film even at increased temperatures. Viscosity improvers are widely used in multigrade oils, viscosity of which is specified at both high and low temperature.
    Acrylate polymers are used as viscosity index improvers in lubricants.

    Anti-foaming agents - Agitation and aeration of a lubricating oil occurring at certain applications (Engine oils, Gear oils, Compressor oils) may result in formation of air bubbles in the oil - foaming. Foaming not only enhances oil oxidation but also decreases lubrication effect causing oil starvation.
    Dimethylsilicones (dimethylsiloxanes) is commonly used as anti-foaming agent in lubricants.

    NEWHD74FAN Experienced Member Retired Moderators

    Oldhippie...great post! Notice the 1st three items deposit a slippery coating layer, which is NOT what you want to put in the primary case where the clutch resides to prevent premature clutch failure due to slippage. Engine and tranny on the other hand need heat protection and high pressure additives respectively, with the balance ingredients in good measure as well.:D
  9. Bud White

    Bud White Well-Known Member Retired Moderators

    I use 15w-50 M1 in the engine .. but not for clutch or primary more moly in 15w50 than the vtwin which says it can be used in the primary and trans