Cam plate/tuner ???

[stray dog]

Assume you have change your cam order from 21G to TW21?

Also, a bit caveman but before I started doing cam upgrades for friends and family, I used the blind hole puller available from AutoZone ....

The outer bearings, if heated in an oven and cams in the freezer over night, will usuall drop right on the cams......just be sure you have the dots lined up when you drop them in.

Dolt, I'm going gears (21G)...only bought the tensioner kit for oil pump & plate.
I was hoping to save $ by getting a newer pump and bolting it to my stock plate, but thats not an option as you stated in earlier post.
I already bought a tool kit for inner bearing R&R but was waiting to measure parts up for pressing plate bearings & cams. I probably will go your way "caveman" here. And watch the dots

Here's what I did....hope it helps.

Harley Davidson Forums

BigAl66, I thought I had read them all! How did I miss yours? NICE lots of pics.
I didn't get a chance to go thru it all since I should be working, but plan to.

 

[dolt]

Dolt, I'm going gears (21G)...only bought the tensioner kit for oil pump & plate. I was hoping to save $ by getting a newer pump and bolting it to my stock plate, but thats not an option as you stated in earlier post. I already bought a tool kit for inner bearing R&R but was waiting to measure parts up for pressing plate bearings & cams. I probably will go your way "caveman" here. And watch the dots

Just a couple of last minute caveman tips.

The gears/cams will include instructions on checking the inner and outer gear lash; the tolerances are quite unforgiving. A (EDIT) to check but with runout at .0027, worth the effort just to be sure the lash is not too tight (loud whine and broken teeth) or real loose (loud "klacking" but teeth will survive) I have taken to using plastic gauge to check lash at 0*, 90*, 180* and 270*; better too loose than too tight. If way loose or way tight, as in binding when you rotate them by hand, Andrews has OS or US gears to solve that problem which I hope you don't have.

Remember that you do not need the roller bearing for the rear cam with gear drives, ball bearings for both; roller for rear is only required for chain drive. Before you install the heated bearings on the frozen cam nose, make sure you have a deep well socket the same size as the inner race of the outer cam bearings just in case they need a little help seating. I know I previously posted PVC pipe or tapping with a small flat punch but the deep well socket would be better.

I don't recall if the 25284-11 billet plate has the cleanout plug with an o-ring at the top of the plate like the OEM plate does but if it does, you need to remove it so you don't melt the o-ring and smell up the kitchen.:s

When you drop the cams into the cam plate, support the cam plate on something thick enough so the nose of the rear cam will drop all the way through allowing the bearing to seat properly. The cam plate should be stable on whatever you use for support.

Inner cam bearings go in with the numbers facing out; the backside of the bearing cage has a chamfer that facilitates getting the bearing straight in the bore; take your time.:yes


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[stray dog]

Just a couple of last minute caveman tips.

The gears/cams will include instructions on checking the inner and outer gear lash; the tolerances are quite unforgiving. A challenge to check but with runout at .0027, worth the effort just to be sure the lash is not too tight (loud whine and broken teeth) or real loose (loud "klacking" but teeth will survive) I have taken to using plastic gauge to check lash at 0*, 90*, 180* and 270*; better too loose than too tight. If way loose or way tight, as in binding when you rotate them by hand, Andrews has OS or US gears to solve that problem which I hope you don't have.

Remember that you do not need the roller bearing for the rear cam with gear drives, ball bearings for both; roller for rear is only required for chain drive. Before you install the heated bearings on the frozen cam nose, make sure you have a deep well socket the same size as the inner race of the outer cam bearings just in case they need a little help seating. I know I previously posted PVC pipe or tapping with a small flat punch but the deep well socket would be better.

I don't recall if the 25284-11 billet plate has the cleanout plug with an o-ring at the top of the plate like the OEM plate does but if it does, you need to remove it so you don't melt the o-ring and smell up the kitchen.:s

When you drop the cams into the cam plate, support the cam plate on something thick enough so the nose of the rear cam will drop all the way through allowing the bearing to seat properly. The cam plate should be stable on whatever you use for support.

Inner cam bearings go in with the numbers facing out; the backside of the bearing cage has a chamfer that facilitates getting the bearing straight in the bore; take your time.:yes

I very much appreciate your time & help Dolt.

The Wood catalog says .000/.001 backlash (.000?? press fit?? I'm not building a perfect race motor) and a HD service manager said .002/.005. While my runout is .0027 at crank, I don't think it is in direct relation to backlash, meaning gear teeth can mesh further than the backlash distance( I think). So I'm hoping it falls into the .0015/.0035 range. I think too much = bad sewing machine noise.
What do you think of that analogy?

 

[dolt]

I very much appreciate your time & help Dolt. The Wood catalog says .000/.001 backlash (.000?? press fit?? I'm not building a perfect race motor) and a HD service manager said .002/.005. While my runout is .0027 at crank, I don't think it is in direct relation to backlash, meaning gear teeth can mesh further than the backlash distance( I think). So I'm hoping it falls into the .0015/.0035 range. I think too much = bad sewing machine noise. What do you think of that analogy?

All the drive gears are produced by Andrews, only one supplier. Andrews recommends .0005"-.001" lash for both inner and outer gears.

http://www.andrewsproducts.com/media/PDF/TwinCamGear-1999-2006.pdf

Too loose and the noise won't be sewing machine but will be a clicking noise as the teeth can move back and forth in slots betwee the teeth in the engaging gear; the more room the teeth have to move, the louder the noise. It's not like heart surgery; many dealer techs and DIY guys install gears and never check lash. Even at a proper fit, the gears will generate a whine as they are pretty much running dry; not objectionable and often times not as noisy as the OEM chains which also make noise. The main thing to avoid is binding, too tight will lead to bad juju. If lash is excessive, the worst thing you will get is a bit of noise from the cam chest that wasn't there before.

Of course runout is related to the outer gear lash, which is why most do not recommend running gear driven cams if total runout exceeds .003"; the main drive gear runs off the pinion shaft where runout is measured. The gear lash will not be consistent in a 360* rotation of the gears which is why you need to check lash at 0*, 90*, 270* and 360* to find where the lash it tightest and/or where lash is the loosest; those are your max/min parameters. You may feel some binding on the inner gears before the cam plate is installed because the cams are free to move off their centerline until the plate/cam assembly is installed in the cam chest. Once installed and the gear on the rear cam is installed, you should be able to spin the rear gear and the inner gears freely without any binding.

I have attached a picture of one way to measure gear lash; may help.

 

[Breeze3at]

Good photo Dolt. Thanks

 

[dolt]

Good photo Dolt. Thanks

Checking outer gear lash.

 

[HDDon]

Excellent descriptions and very easy to follow. Thanks Dolt.

 

[stray dog]

UPDATE: Alive She Cried!

All went pretty well. The backlash on the cam gears was about .0005 and installed all I kept thinking is that it felt like a swiss watch movement. The outer gears had a backlash of .0005, .0006, .001 & .0006. So I was feeling pretty good/lucky with the fitment. By the way the Andrews gear kit were S&S gears.
While adjusting the pushrods, the lifters bled down fast. I didn't need to wait more than a couple minutes before I could work on the next one. Maybe because they were new..? (S&S 33-5350)
I'm not sure if this is the correct way but I left the plugs out attached to the wires and grounded the plugs, then three 5 to 10 second turn overs to attempt to prime the new oil pump and start to get some oil upstairs before I fired up the motor. AGAIN I'm not sure about this procedure. Maybe someone will inject some wisdom here.

Anyway she started right up and sounded GOOD!

I still need to install the EJK 3 (Dillion @ Doebeck recomened the 3.0 vs the 3.5 for my set up, I can also bypass the 3.0 by just disconnecting the ground wire which I liked).

Well I need to wait for spring for a test drive but anticipating all good.
I'll give another update then.

And I appreciate everbodies help & input here. It's a great feeling to know someones got your back when you are doing some of this stuff for the first time!

 

[Bodeen]

Great job! This is a great place for getting through the tough problems. Let us know hoe she runs when you get a chance to. This was/is a very good thread and exemplifies what this place is all about. Big thanks to Dolt for his wisdom too!

 

[HOLY DIVER]

i was going gear drive until i checked my runout and figured out i needed a new crank or have mine repaired (.025 runout) so when the SE stroker crank was installed it was showing .0001 runout perfect for a gear drive but then i got worried 40,000 miles from now if i had .007 runout then what?chewed up gears?so i went with the SE hydraulic kit with S&S 510 cams.now my guess is since you only have .0026 runout you don't abuse you engine and most likely the runout will prob be right through the life of the engine.