Bike dying, lean, Sturgis trip slipping away...

Discussion in 'Engine, Fuel and Exhaust' started by kansaskid72, Aug 4, 2011.

  1. kansaskid72

    kansaskid72 Member

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    -2007 FXDB Street Bob.
    -Roland Sands Turbine 2.25" filter
    -Bub Straightaway exhaust 2-2 full

    Running a Thundermax for 3 years no problem. Went with new turn sigs and tail light which required Badlands load equalizer this winter. Fresh painted too so tank was off. Ran fine for 1 month, then the problem started. Did apes with all wires to the bars spliced about 2 years ago...no issues since however. Did nothing to the bike immediately before this began to happen. Ran through the rain about a week prior to it happening. Everything is dry it seems though...it's been a month since then!

    Rides good and strong for 5 miles, then hesitates, pops (loud!), dies. All speeds all RPMs. Once the issue starts happening I can restart it fine each time, but it will act up again right away. Slightest bumps seem to kill it sometimes. Also inclines/declines. Still have all instruments and lighting when dies. Can repeat the problem in driveway. Level and idle it's fine. I begin to back down a grade angle and it sputters and dies.

    Replaced Fuel Filter, System Relay, CPK sensor, Fuel Pres test good, ignition coil good, VSS clean, all ground connections good, new battery and cables are solid tight and clean.

    Took it to the local dealer. They wiggle tested EFI wires, checked ECM plug, replaced plugs and wires...nothing helped. They put back in stock ECM I had, no O2 sensors....never died on him but still pops really loud on accel and decel. So Thundermax enhanced the problem somehow.

    Plugs are really white. So lean I guess. The dying and popping is probably lean.

    Was supposed to be on the road to Sturgis today...bike is still at dealer and they are lost. Next thing they are doing is putting in stock O2 sensors and on the Dyno with diag equip to see what it's doing.

    Any thoughts?? This is sickening ...
     
  2. Breeze3at

    Breeze3at Well-Known Member

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    Has the bank angle sensor been tested, isolated? A couple of keywords you used, "bumps/ inclines". Also taillight turn signals replaced. I don't know how the TSSM interacts with the BAS but might be worth looking at. Our electrical whiz, Hoople should be on soon with his ideas.
     
  3. glider

    glider Veteran Member

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    I agree with Breeze. It sounds more to me like a wire that's grounding out that causes your problem. Recheck all the wiring that you have done and look for a loose or grounded wire or connection.
     
  4. kansaskid72

    kansaskid72 Member

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    Bank angle hasn't been checked. They tell me it's only for 90 deg side angles and not forward backward ones. Rechecked rear light wiring and all is good. Rechecked front bar wiring and no exposed wires. Rechecked 3 ground wires to frame and the power wire to the stud, no exposures or cut insulation. When I did all wiring splices, I twisted bare ends together, soldered, and applied heat shrink tubing. Have wiggled tested every wire on this bike I think! Nothing seems unusual. Even disconnected the Badlands Load Equalizer...no change.

    Dealer swapped out TSM for a new one...no change.

    Intake leak? I can slightly rotate the filter inside the outer caging...hmmm.

    Intake leak? Voltage Regulator? Possibly my original and the new CPK sensors are bad causing a timing problem you think? I'm headed down to the dealer in about an hour to hound them to fix. Anything I can relay to them would help. They've already been on the phone with mother HD techs with no results. I could bring my SE Stage 1 A/C and have them test it back on...maybe it's an intake leak on the Roland Sands.

    I keep coming back to the repeatable test condition...bike level it idles fine. As soon as the rear tire begins backing down an angled driveway it sputters and then kills it with a backfire pop...sometimes out the A/C, mostly out the exhaust. Bike has to be thoroughly warmed up though for this to happen. I think this will lead us to the why....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011
  5. kansaskid72

    kansaskid72 Member

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    Just returned from the dealer again...spent 3 hours there. They said they keep getting the CPK sensor error off the stock ECM so they replaced it (even though I replaced it with a new one 2 weeks ago thinking it was that in the first place). Well...the bike runs much better now. But it still backfires on bumps and rough roads. Sometimes it will die on the bumps like you hit the kill switch...but the speedo still works and all the instruments do to. The dealer is lost now. I showed them in the parking lot what happens when I back it down an incline and hit the front brake hard...the front suspension lifts and the bike stumbles, and dies sometimes if I do it hard enough. The did wiggle tests on every wire on there, and replaced TSM again for the bank angle sensor...doesn't fix it and wiggling wires and pounding on the bars and kill switch area won't cause it to stumble or die.

    10 hours of diagnosis they told me so far. Holy cow...what is this going to cost me.

    They told me they need to contact HD tech to get more suggestions on what to do. I think they are trying to dyno it later to see if it's overly lean or rich. My T-max shows it right on the money though.

    If I stop with the dealer now it'll cost me a fortune and I still have a broken bike, then the indy will probably start all over and charge me for everything AGAIN. I think I'll stick this out with the dealer and let them go until they can fix it.

    There goes Sturgis this year! (EDIT)...

    Thoughts?

    Please read and understand the info in this link...
    [note]
    A Friendly Reminder - Harley Davidson Community
    [/note]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011
  6. 75shovelbobber

    75shovelbobber Banned

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    might be a good idea to test the voltage regulator too man ... it can play funny tricks like what you described . see the charging system tests . easy to do if ya got a multimeter and easy part to replace on your own
     
  7. dieselguy65

    dieselguy65 Account Removed

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    electrical issues can be a real gremlin. but i am willing to bet this turns out to be somehting so simple it keeps getting overlooked. I am amazed the dealer actually spent 10 hrs working on it. I bet they spent 30 mins and the rest doing nothing.In ten hours I can tear the whole bike down to nothing, and go over every sensor and connection there is. simple enough, put 4x4 block under front wheel, start testing wiring and find out where missing signal is. if it backfires and pops, I would start with ignition system first. really doubtful fuel would be the culprit here.
     
  8. Hoople

    Hoople Account Removed

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    So when the engine dies, you do not log any DTC's. But your still getting crank sensor pickup errors, even after you replaced it twice.. If that is true, you must find the reason for that before going any further.

    Are they just replacing the pickup or are they actually checking the output. This is a dealership and they should have an ECM break-out box. While using a break-out box, view the output of the pickup while the engine is running and tap on the crankcase with a rubber hammer or dead blow mallet. The output on the trigger should remain clean. I would also check the pickup gap. It could be excessive. (yes it is non adjustable, but that does not mean it is correct)

    I have other suggestions but since the dealership is working on it, you really can't step in.

    No home is complete without your very own "on the cheap" break-out box.:)
     

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  9. Hoople

    Hoople Account Removed

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    Alright, lets Go. The weekend is almost here and we gotta get this bike fixed & Out the Door!

    I have a very important KEY question that needs an accurate answer. If your not sure, just say so but don't guess. Is this a true fact.=> "Once the issue starts happening I can restart it fine each time, but it will act up again right away."

    Help me understand. Can the problem happen, you then kill the ignition, perform a hot restart and NOW the bike runs FINE until the next bump or does it just run fine for a few seconds and then once again starts running bad all on its own without hitting a bump? Can this be repeated with the same results. What I need to know is, will a hot restart clear the issue until another bump OR does the bike need to cool down before it will run OK once again OR will a hot restart clear the issue for only for a few seconds WITHOUT hitting another bump.

    **********************************************************************************************************
    2nd question

    Original quote from entry point #1 => "Took it to the local dealer. They put back in stock ECM I had, no O2 sensors....never died on him but still pops really loud on accel and decel. So Thundermax enhanced the problem somehow."

    What does "no o2 sensors" mean? If you re-installed the factory ECM, you absolutely must re-install the factory narrow band sensors. From reading what you wrote in entry point #1, it almost sounds like the dealership installed the factory ECM and either is running it without any o2 sensors attached or they are running the factory ECM with wide band sensors (which is electrically impossible). Either way,, that would have been an insane move. Please tell me that this is not true.

    And now from entry point #6 you quote=> " My T-max shows it right on the money though."

    So now I am really confused. When did the T-max get reinstalled. No mention to that was ever made. Is the T-Max installed at this time.

    You asked for "thoughts",, so you get my opinion. I would not have installed the T-Max until the problem was resolved. Don't complicate the issue by bringing in outside devices.. Diagnose the bike in it's native, factory "narrow band" state first. Then once it is repaired, re-install your optional fuel management system. Problems like this can easily spiral into a black hole because too many changes are made at one time or bad pieces of the puzzle go "back into the mix". Don't fall into the trap of taking a part out,,,seeing no performance change,,, so you put that part back in. That is a common trap people fall into and is the first step into the black hole....

    I will not be able to sleep until I hear your reply about the question regarding "no O2 Sensors". (the dealership didn't run the factory ECM without o2 sensors, did they?... that can't be. :) But it almost sounds like they did)
     
  10. kansaskid72

    kansaskid72 Member

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    "Once the issue starts happening I can restart it fine each time, but it will act up again right away."

    After the CPK was replaced for the second time, the lean and dying condition doesn't persist ALL the time. Now it will just hickup/backfire out the exhaust exactly over each bump/pothole/rough section of road. Then it will ride fine until the next bump. Some bumbs will kill the engine if they are big enough.

    Help me understand. Can the problem happen, you then kill the ignition, perform a hot restart and NOW the bike runs FINE until the next bump or does it just run fine for a few seconds and then once again starts running bad all on its own without hitting a bump? It used to be where once the engine warmed up, it'd run bad all on it's own after a bump, forever even on level good road. Now after CPK it only does it on the actual bump, then clears up until the next bump

    Can this be repeated with the same results. What I need to know is, will a hot restart clear the issue until another bump OR does the bike need to cool down before it will run OK once again OR will a hot restart clear the issue for only for a few seconds WITHOUT hitting another bump

    The last statement is correct



    **********************************************************************************************************
    2nd question

    What does "no o2 sensors" mean? They put in the stock ECM, left the Tmax O2 sensors in the pipes disconnected from the ECM since they can't connect it to stock. Ran good for 30 miles the tech said, minus some popping on accel/decel likely from having no O2 sensor feedback to the ECM the tech said.

    Please tell me that this is not true. True! They did it!

    So now I am really confused. When did the T-max get reinstalled. No mention to that was ever made. Is the T-Max installed at this time. Yes it's in now...but they keep swapping back and forth to isolate a possible problem with the T-max they think. They just unplug the TMAX from the ECM plug, and plug in the Stock module. Whenever they reinstall the TMAX I ensure they reinitialize it too



    I will not be able to sleep until I hear your reply about the question regarding "no O2 Sensors". (the dealership didn't run the factory ECM without o2 sensors, did they?... that can't be. :) But it almost sounds like they did)[/QUOTE] THEY DID! :(

    Here's what I plan to do. Rescue the bike from them today (hopefully without a bill since they probably have damaged my bike running it without O2 sensors...and they haven't fixed anything! Buy some O2 stock sensors I located at an HD shop in Denver. Install them, and the stock ECM, and my stock Air Filter. So all I have for mods is the full 2-2 bub exhaust. Then run it and check for symptoms and DTCs. Sound like a good plan?