96 to 103 stage 2 conversion

Discussion in 'General Harley Davidson Topic' started by tubguy, Mar 23, 2016.

  1. tubguy

    tubguy Active Member

    Hello to All
    It's been a long time since I've posted anything but thought all the pros would be able to help. I'm considering doing an up grade from my existing 96 to a 103 stage 2. I'll include everything being done with prices. So any opinions will be appreciated.
    Stss pro $595
    Se 259 cams $425
    Perfect fit push rods +.30 $155
    Se valve springs $193
    Cam bearing assembly kit 96tc $26
    Gasket kit $140
    Roller tapped $163 for 4
    Total $1695
    Labour 13.5 hrs @ $103 = $1390

    Total labour and parts $3086.00

    He figures I'll get around 90 hp and 90 torque. How does this sound, also these are Canadian funds.

    Thanks in advance
    Mongo1958 likes this.
  2. Mongo1958

    Mongo1958 Junior Member

    Not trying to be critical here. I got more torque and HP on my 96 Ci with a cam install and tune with a new set of fat cats. 100.4T/98HP
  3. Harttoo

    Harttoo Senior Member

    103 runs much hotter.You may want to consider an oil cooler.
    tubguy and Jack Klarich like this.
  4. dbmg

    dbmg Experienced Member

    I have 2 questions.
    1.) Have you shop around for that seems like a lot of money.
    2.) Do you like your bike enough to put $3,100.00 plus for I do not see any dyno time or consequential money set aside for unexpected needs while performing upgrades.
    After spending that kind of coin and you are not at 100 hp/100tq I would be inclined to find someone who would get you there for less money. As Mongo's example of what he did on his steed. Do not get yourself into a black hole where you are ultimately unhappy and need to find a shop that can correct bike or end up being out the cash and just trade in for a new steed..
    HDDon likes this.
  5. dolt

    dolt Senior Member Contributor

    Just a couple of questions, comments and suggestions.
    What is the STSS Pro? Are you referring to one of the HD tuners, i.e., SESPT or the SEPST? or something else.
    What is the year and model of the bike?
    How many miles on the bike?
    I do not see the cost of boring cylinders or the cost of new pistons.
    I do not see the cost of a dyno tune as dbmg has pointed out.
    Have you already upgraded to Stage I? What air filter and exhaust?

    Depending on the model year and mileage, you may not need to replace the lifters.
    Unless warranty is an issue, HD cams can be replace with better aftermarket cams but if warranty is an issue, the SE 204, IMHO, would be a better choice than the SE259. If not having heads ported, the stock heads are not capable of taking advantage of the higher lift cams. The SE204 cams will also produce a better TQ curve than the 259 which are not bad cams but need more than stock compression to shine.
    Perfect fit pushrods are not required if the cams selected are lower lift cams like the SE204 with lifts in the .510" range; stock pushrods will work.
    In either configuration, 96" or 103", SE valve springs are not required; the OEM beehive springs will work fine in this mild upgrade.

    Not knowing what your performance goals are makes it hard to give informed advice but if 90/90 numbers are your goal and $3100 is within your budget you need to know that you can get real close to 90/90 for much less. To simplify the related cost, the costs I refer to will be in USD; 3086CAD = $2340USD; $1286 in parts and $1054USD in labor.

    A cam only upgrade, fuel management system and dyno tune can get you in the 85HP/100TQ neighborhood for about $1250USD in parts (cams, tuner and dyno tune) plus $625UD for 8 labor hours $78USD/hour for total cost of $1875USD/2475CAD. If you should need lifters and pushrods, add $300USD to that total. Note that both figures exceed your current projected cost of $2340USD because I believe you have missed some items in your above listed cost projections.

    Now, if you want to go to 103" you should consider changing your plan and looking for numbers in the 100HP/110 range but, of course, that means "mo money".:(

    A strong 103" configuration will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $1850USD/2442CAD plus your projected labor cost of $1054USD/1390CAD for a total cost of $2904USD/3832CAD. This would include boring cylinders, fitting new pistons, cams, pushrods, lifters, gaskets, tuner and dyno tune. With the right cam and tune, this configuration can produce 100HP/110TQ numbers easy. Add headwork at a cost of another $500USD and those numbers go up even more.

    Now, I throw the curve. The new 110" drop in piston cylinder kit from HD cost about $1100USD from an online discount dealer. Unfortunately, dealers in the lower 48 will not ship to "foreign" countries, so you would have to have someone down south purchase and mail, or pay retail at a local HD dealer. Substituting the 110" kit for the 103" pistons and cylinders will add about $800 to the price to go to 103" but you are then looking at 110+HP/125+TQ.

    It's all about what your performance goals are and how much you can afford to achieve those goals. You have to pay to play.;)
    Mongo1958 and tubguy like this.
  6. Jack Klarich

    Jack Klarich Expert Member

    New cylinder studs included?
  7. tubguy

    tubguy Active Member

    Hey Mongo. Thanks for the response. I'd be very interested in your add on if you'd be willing to share.
    Mongo1958 likes this.
  8. tubguy

    tubguy Active Member

    Hello Dolt. Also thanks for the response.

    I run a 2010 Electra ultra, it's got 40k kms. So 25k miles. I've done a stage one so I have original headers with cats removed, V/H ovals and a SE big air intake. I'm currently using a dobek TFI.

    The tuner was the Screaming Eagle Super tuner pro that was included in the tune up.
    My dreams are to have enough power to pull a trailer with enough torque than I can twist that throttle and she'll get up and go. With as little lag as possible. But also don't want to spend a wacky load of cash. Any other tidbits would be appreciated
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2016
  9. dolt

    dolt Senior Member Contributor

    If that is your goal, a cam upgrade is all you need; no need to go to 103". Two cams come to mind, the TTS100 or the SE255; both are torque cams and will deliver torque off idle to about 4500rpms with a good tune. Inner cam bearings should be upgraded to Torrington/Timken B-168s as part of the cam change. The 2010 models still ran the -99B lifters which were subsequently replaced by the -99C lifters; -99B lifters are good; -99C lifters has problems. If your valve train is quiet, your lifters don't need to be replaced; however with the current mileage and a performance cam, it would be worth the $125 or so to replace them with a set of S&S standard lifters.

    As for the cams, the TTS100 is fairly new and is a torque monster; IMHO, perfect for your application. If you were to install the TTS100, I suggest that you consider the TTS Mastertune for fuel management over the SEPST. I am sure there is map in the TTS catalog that closely matches your configuration with their cam which you could run until you get the motor dyno tuned which you should do. Check the cam chain tensioner wear while in the cam chest and replace if they show abnormal wear.

    There are a couple other changes you could make if of a mind and budget allows. Replacing the 32T transmission pulley with a 31T or 30T will help the low end. No belt change with the 31T but the 30T might require a belt change; some get by with the OEM belt, others have to replace it.

    Replacing the OEM head pipe with the V&H Power Dual head pipe would also help overall performance and replacing the standard baffle with the "quiet" baffle will help the low end but I don't know why it is called the quiet baffle.:confused:

    So, to summarize, you can achieve your goal with a cam upgrade, new fuel management system and dyno tune. The cost will slightly exceed your current projected cost per my previous post but you will be happy with the results. If, after making the changes, you still feel the need for more low end power, boring to 103" is still an option as well the trans pulley change and exhaust upgrade; however, as long as your top end is tight, I would forego the 103" option until such time as the top end starting showing signs of wear, unless money is just burning a hole in your pocket.............;)

    Good luck with your project.:)
    tubguy likes this.
  10. Mongo1958

    Mongo1958 Junior Member

    Well, I did the same thing that you are doing now by asking a lot of questions.
    I ended up installing a SE 255 set of cams (the Andrews 48H is supposed to be the best match for the 96ci). I got a set of Moto X header pipes installed that I did not like and went with a D&D Fat Cats 2 into 1. I already had a stage one intake. I got lots of help from Dolt and Bubbie. The 96CI is a good engine I think you will like it a lot with a cam and exhaust upgrade
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
    tubguy likes this.