2002 road king drivetrain alignment

[dolt]

there shouldn't be any adjustment that can change the lateral angle between the tranny and the swing arm

Wrong; that is if I read the above statement correctly. Check the service manual and look at Section 2.8, pg. 27-28 and Figures 2.36 and 2.37. We have been referring to power train alignment which is a misnomer; the alignment is actually aligning the chassis with the power train. The two figures referenced above show examples of horizontal and vertical mis-alignment. As you can see the rear wheel position is off center in the swing arm in Figure 2.36 which changes the angle between the trans and swing arm.

changing the lateral axis of the drivetrain by adjusting the front motor mount won't change the angle between the tranny pulley and the rear wheel pulley

Correct if your "lateral" axis is the horizontal axis; left-right looking down on the bike. Don't want to get wrapped around the axle on terms; pardon the pun. However, if the chassis is out alignment with the power train vertically (left-right looking at the bike from the front/rear, the vertical planes of the trans and wheel pulley will not be the same. This mis-alignment would put a bit of a "twist" in the belt.

adjusting the front motor mount is done to change the angle of the rear tire in relation to the front tire.

Wrong again; sort of. Adjusting the front motor mount is done to align the power train with the chassis. Rear wheel alignment should be established before aligning the power train to the chassis by centering the wheel in the swing arm. Once the power train/chassis alignment has been completed and the rear wheel is centered in the swing arm, the rear wheel may not be centered precisely in the fender; don't forget there is very likely a difference. There is an ongoing debate as to whether or not there is an offset, from the factory, between the front and rear wheels on touring models as there is on dynas and softails. Some more experienced than I say there is no factory offset but I can't say for sure. Even if there is, the vertical planes through the wheels can be aligned but not necessarily tracking on the same plane, although the planes should be parallel.

the only way i can think of to change the angle between the tranny pulley and the rear wheel pulley is to change the angle of the rear wheel axle.

Correct.

dolt, i'm back to you. pulleys are parallel but offset? is this the cause of the abnormal belt wear? my rear wheel sits to the left side of wheel well, like your before you changed it. how do you move the wheel to the center and still have the brake caliper and rotor (and beltguard) aligned properly?

I suppose pulleys could be parallel but offset but not by design. My rear wheel offset was cured by power train/chassis alignment. You cannot move the rear wheel right; the brake caliper and caliper stop pad fix the position of the rear wheel to the right side of the swing arm. However, you can move the rear wheel right by trimming the caliper and/or the caliper stop pad. In the early touring models, the brake caliper can be trimmed by about .100" before making hard contact with the stop pad. If the wheel needs to move more right; the brake caliper stop pad has to be trimmed accordingly.

The near center position of my rear wheel was achieved by aligning wheels first and then aligning the power train to the chassis. I thought I would need to trim the caliper but the alignment got the rear wheel close enough to center that I am happy with it even though, if you look closely, it is not dead center of the fender. I replace the hard rubber donuts and the bit of wobble the bike used to exhibit at say 80-85mph in a long sweeper is gone.

If I were you, I would align wheels (you say you have done that) then align power train to chassis using whatever technique you like but the lasers and digital levels are fairly inexpensive and will get the results. IIRC, I ended up turning about 2.5 turns on the front adjustor and about 1.5 turns on the vertical. Jake's method is good but he assumes that leveling the frame rails gets the fork stem vertical and using a protractor on the front rotor to determine when the front end is pointed straight ahead, 90 degrees on the protractor, aka straight up. I added a second check to verify the front wheel is straight ahead by shooting off both front rotors back to a steel straight edge that is clamped, symmetrically (perpendicular to the backbone)on the frame, this required removing the tank. Down tubes and lower frame rails are not IMHO accurate references, but shooting up at an angle with lasers on the front rotors and measuring in to the frame backbone, taking into account any difference in offset of the left and right rotors from centerline will establish that the front wheel is not only at 90* but pointed straight ahead.

Keep us posted as you proceed.:bigsmiley23:

 

[oldscoolz]

dolt, can you clarify how aligning the wheels and aligning the drivetrain are different procedures? (i'm not talking about vertical alignment.)

i think that on the '02 flhr, wheel alignment is done by loosening the front motor mount and moving the front of the engine right or left relative to the chassis. when you do this, the motor/tranny/swingarm/rear wheel move as one unit. when you move the front of the engine from one side to the other, the point of attachment or pivot point with the chassis is where the swingarm shaft sits in the rubber biscuit of the swingarm bracket. if you move the engine front to the left, the left side of the swingarm shaft moves backward in the bracket and the right side of the swingarm axle moves forward in the swingarm bracket. the rear tire moves to the right side of the rear fender well. the fender is attached to the chassis. this left/right adjustment of the position of the engine at the front motor mount is what changes the alignment of the rear wheel and allows you to put the front and rear wheels in alignment.

a second type of "alignment" we've talked about involves changing the spacers on the rear wheel axle to move the position of the wheel within the swingarm. i had previously, mistakenly, thought that might be part of my problem. i no longer believe that's the case.

i'd venture a guess that the position of the rear wheel relative to the rear fender is usually a red herring and leads to confusion. it initially made me think that the rear wheel was "offcenter". in fact, the rear wheel is located right where it should be relative to the swingarm. the position of the wheel and swingarm in the fender well reflect the alignment of the drivetrain and the chassis. you don't change the wheel alignment and then change the drivetrain alignment independently (unless you have a model that allows you to change your rear wheel axle position by moving one side of the axle forward or backward relative to the other side).

i've included two pics that try to illustrate this point about why the front motor mount is the way that the rear wheel alignment is changed. that point wasn't obvious to me at all before this thread began and strikes me as an important piece of information to know. i'd appreciate anybody who knows this stuff cold weighing in to confirm or correct this.

i can hardly imagine what anybody reading this casually thinks!!!! i'm ready to tip a few. salute.

 

[dolt]

dolt, can you clarify how aligning the wheels and aligning the drivetrain are different procedures? (i'm not talking about vertical alignment.)

Traveling, so apologies for the delayed reply. I think we are talking around one another but saying the same thing.

The only point I am trying to make, not so much for you but for anyone trying to follow the thread, is that before moving the drivetrain around, the chassis must be level and plumb and the wheels aligned. By "wheels aligned" I mean tracking in the same or at least parallel planes. Dynas and softails have a built in offset between the front and rear wheels but not so in the touring models or so I have heard from someone that does this for a living.

You can't disregard vertical alignment. You can have the wheels aligned and correct horizontal drivetrain alignment but if the drivetrain is vertically misaligned, you don't have anything.

i'd venture a guess that the position of the rear wheel relative to the rear fender is usually a red herring and leads to confusion. it initially made me think that the rear wheel was "offcenter". in fact, the rear wheel is located right where it should be relative to the swingarm. the position of the wheel and swingarm in the fender well reflect the alignment of the drivetrain and the chassis.

Agree to a point. If you look at my before and after photos again, you can plainly see that the rear wheel has moved to the right in the fender; it was located dead center of the swing arm in both photos. So, it was not a red herring in my case; the rear wheel being off center in the fender was the first indicator to me that I had an alignment issue. It took about 2.5 turns, IIRC, to correct.

you don't change the wheel alignment and then change the drivetrain alignment independently (unless you have a model that allows you to change your rear wheel axle position by moving one side of the axle forward or backward relative to the other side).

Precisely the point I have been trying to make regarding wheel alignment. All Harley models allow one to change the rear wheel axle by moving on side forward or backward to the other. Fortunately the touring models have a "dimple" in the ends of the swing arm pivot shaft and the ends of the axle, so it is easy to verify that the rear wheel is positioned correctly relative to the chassis. Unfortuntely, with those funky cam adjustors, it can be tricky achieving the proper axle torque without moving the axle.:sd

Like I said, I think we are on the same page, just talking past one another. I will say again though that the best way to properly align the vehicle in by leveling and plumbing the frame, pointing the front wheel straight ahead (verified by a digital laser/protractor), verifying that the rear wheel is centered in the swing arm and also pointed straight ahead and plumb before making any power train adjustments. If the rear wheel is not plumb, vertical adjustment must be made to correct. Once that is made, horizontal corrections can be made.:coffee

 

[oldscoolz]

took the swingarm off today. before removing it, there was a little more play, both side to side and a little front to back, than i expected. once i got it apart, nothing looked broken or worn out. buscuits are ok. the swingarm bearings are spherical plain bearings. no big deal but that's kind of surprising. after taking a look and cleaning everything up, i did a dry reassembly. the shaft wasn't previously pushed all the way into the right sided biscuit. there's a stepoff between the load bearing part of the shaft and the threads at the end. only the threaded part had previously been pulled through the opening in the biscuit. when the larger diameter portion of the shaft is brought through the hole, the spacer under the nut has an inset to hold the larger part of the shaft in place, and the side to side and front to back slop disappeared. looks like it was incorrectly assembled. we'll see what effect that has on belt wear after i get some miles on it. that'd be great if that's the "alignment" ghost i've been chasin for a couple years now.

regarding alignment dolt, we got some areas we agree and some areas where not so much. i WISH all harley models had rear wheel adjustment. they should. the cam system lets you tighten and loosen your belt but not change the alignment of the rear wheel.

regarding alignment, i would love to hear an explanation or description from the guy who engineered the suspended drivetrain. yea, it beats pissin blood, but try to get a straight answer on how it works. that's what bagger wobble is all about. and there's an incredible amount of myth and misconception about how that happens. you'd think with all that discussion, there would be some really straightforward descriptions of how the thing is engineered. and you'd think the harley boys would make that information available. er, if they didn't think it would hurt em in court cases of bagger wobble. well, that's wanderin far off the track. i'm just tryin to figure out how the thing works so i can make it go the way i wanna go.

thanks everybody for your thoughts and help.

 

[dolt]

regarding alignment dolt, we got some areas we agree and some areas where not so much. i WISH all harley models had rear wheel adjustment. they should. the cam system lets you tighten and loosen your belt but not change the alignment of the rear wheel.

Of the cam system can affect the rear wheel alignment.:bigsmiley21: I am sure you would agree that the belt can be properly tensioned but the axle not centered in the swing arm slot? In that case, belt is adjusted but rear wheel would not be pointed straight ahead. That's all I am saying and to my point; that has to be pre-cursor to any drivetrain to chassis alignment.

I have attached a link to a couple of posts from HTT that discuss cause, effect and solution to bagger wobble; one on the various stabilizers and the other on bagger wobble in general. Long reads but worth your time if you want to understand more about the "hinge" in our beloved touring models. As for the "bisuits"; they may look fine but they do compress and will not retain their shape; since you have the opportunity, I would replace them.

How do the bagger stabilizers work?

Does your bagger handle like a drunken camel in a sand storm?

 

[oldscoolz]

dolt, your comments suggest that the position of the rear wheel in the swingarm is something that may need to be adjusted. just to be clear, when we're talking about the the position of the rear wheel in the swingarm or cam adjusters, we're talking about the position of the rear wheel on the rear wheel axle. the wheel could be shifted to the left or right on the axle shaft by changing the size of the spacers. for most of us, that is totally unnecessary. another type of repositioning that can done on most bikes is to move one end of the axle forward or back. that changes the angle of the rear wheel.

on the flhr, i wouldn't adjust the lateral position of the wheel on the axle for a stock setup. the spacers make that a fixed position and there's nothing in its design that allows you to change that position. remember, if you change where the wheel in on the axle by changing the spacers, your brake rotor is no longer lined up with your caliper, creating a new problem. the bike is just not set up to have you change the lateral position of the wheel on the axle. so unless you're going to a new swingarm or different width wheel, the position of that rear wheel is engineered to be right where it is straight from the factory, and there isn't much that can alter that position by wearing out. bearings, spacers, caliper connection.

the rear axle cam system is designed to move each side of the axle the same amount, so when you turn the axle to tighten up the belt, the axle stays straight. it is also a fixed system, in the sense that it is not designed to let you change the alignment of the rear wheel. other bikes have a separate adjustment that allows you to change the axle alignment, moving one end forward or backward in relation to the other end. this is often done with an adjusting screw in the swingarm that pushes against one end of the axle. the harley cam system doesn't allow this adjustment AND is also subject to misalignment if the cam doesn't mate tightly to the axle shaft. that's something tq has talked about and i've also experienced.

i made the mistake of looking at the position of my rear tire from the back of my bike and seeing that it was off to one side. i incorrectly thought this was caused by the position of the wheel on the axle. if i had known better, i would have realized that the "offcenter" position of the wheel i was looking at was the position of the wheel in relation to the fender well (part of the chassis). that offcenter-ness is because the engine/tranny/swingarm/rear wheel axis is not parallel to the chassis, so it pushes the rear wheel off to one side in the rear fender well. the pivot point for that alignment of the drivetrain in relation to the chassis is where the swingarm attaches to the chassis-- the swingarm brackets that hold the rubber biscuits that hold the ends of the swingarm shaft.

please don't misunderstand my reply. i'm not criticizing or correcting. i just want to be clear about what we're saying. hopefully it can be of help to somebody else.

 

[dolt]

dolt, your comments suggest that the position of the rear wheel in the swingarm is something that may need to be adjusted. just to be clear, when we're talking about the the position of the rear wheel in the swingarm or cam adjusters, we're talking about the position of the rear wheel on the rear wheel axle. the wheel could be shifted to the left or right on the axle shaft by changing the size of the spacers. for most of us, that is totally unnecessary. another type of repositioning that can done on most bikes is to move one end of the axle forward or back. that changes the angle of the rear wheel.

Agreed, I was referring to the rear wheel/axle position in the swing arm.

on the flhr, i wouldn't adjust the lateral position of the wheel on the axle for a stock setup. the spacers make that a fixed position and there's nothing in its design that allows you to change that position. remember, if you change where the wheel in on the axle by changing the spacers, your brake rotor is no longer lined up with your caliper, creating a new problem. the bike is just not set up to have you change the lateral position of the wheel on the axle. so unless you're going to a new swingarm or different width wheel, the position of that rear wheel is engineered to be right where it is straight from the factory, and there isn't much that can alter that position by wearing out. bearings, spacers, caliper connection.

Agree again; the brake caliper/rotor fixes the horizontal position of the wheel in the swing arm and, unless there is an offset from the factory that one desires to correct, there is no need to go through the work required to move the wheel right. The wheel can be moved left but that would make the offset worse. In spite of what I have been told by those "in the know", I have encountered rear wheels that are offset to the left as much as 9mm;always on early models. That offset has been corrected by trimming the brake caliper and in extreme situations, the caliper and the stop tab were trimmed. Not saying it is necessary but IMHO, both front and rear wheels should track as close to the same plane as possible if they don't track on the same plane.

the rear axle cam system is designed to move each side of the axle the same amount, so when you turn the axle to tighten up the belt, the axle stays straight. it is also a fixed system, in the sense that it is not designed to let you change the alignment of the rear wheel. other bikes have a separate adjustment that allows you to change the axle alignment, moving one end forward or backward in relation to the other end. this is often done with an adjusting screw in the swingarm that pushes against one end of the axle. the harley cam system doesn't allow this adjustment AND is also subject to misalignment if the cam doesn't mate tightly to the axle shaft. that's something tq has talked about and i've also experienced.

Agree; however, I can tell you from personal experience that there are two basic things wrong with the cam system. You go to the trouble to "index" the cams (I have done it) and center punch a dot on the swing arm tab the cams push against and have them aligned on both sides only to find that when you check the distance from the center of the swing arm to the center of the axle on each side, the distances may not be the same.

Second problem is that it is dang near impossible to tighten the axle to the proper torque and not have the cam adjuster on the brake (right) side, turn (loosen) just as you are applying the last 20-30 foot pounds of torque. What do you do then; start over or use a dead blow hammer to rotate the errant cam adjustor so that is contact with the tab? Or just run it and hope that the application of power to the rear wheel doesn't push the right side of the axle back up against the tab and throw the wheel cockeyed in the swing arm. The cam adjustor system is archaic and should have been replaced with adjusting screws as are the dynas and softails. JMHO.:coffee

i made the mistake of looking at the position of my rear tire from the back of my bike and seeing that it was off to one side. i incorrectly thought this was caused by the position of the wheel on the axle. if i had known better, i would have realized that the "offcenter" position of the wheel i was looking at was the position of the wheel in relation to the fender well (part of the chassis). that offcenter-ness is because the engine/tranny/swingarm/rear wheel axis is not parallel to the chassis, so it pushes the rear wheel off to one side in the rear fender well. the pivot point for that alignment of the drivetrain in relation to the chassis is where the swingarm attaches to the chassis-- the swingarm brackets that hold the rubber biscuits that hold the ends of the swingarm shaft.

No disagreement on this point either; my off center rear wheel was pulled nearly back to center with a proper alignment. However, sometimes even after a proper alignment, there may still be an offset in the fender that some find objectionable as I would have; after all, the fender is attached to the chassis.:s At that point, one must make the decision to live with it or take the measures outlined above to move the wheel right; a personal call.

please don't misunderstand my reply. i'm not criticizing or correcting. i just want to be clear about what we're saying. hopefully it can be of help to somebody else.

No worries; I am wearing my big boy pants and it has been a good discussion. I hope you get your bagger wobble sorted out and would like to hear the results of your work when done. I would still replace those "biscuits"; you are there, they aren't that expensive and it's just too easy.:bigsmiley10:

 

[oldscoolz]

here's some followup on the 2002 flhri alignment. i put the swingarm back on. its position in the rear fender well was about the same. i got some $18 laser levels from harbor freight and checked the alignment. the left wheel was pointed left compared to the front wheel.

here's how i checked the alignment. leveled the frame by putting a level on the upper frame rails with the seat off and shimming my lift. put a level on the rear rotor to make sure the drivetrain was vertical. then made the front wheel vertical by putting a level on the front rotor and moving the front wheel until it was vertical. then put laser levels on the front and rear rotors. this showed misalignment of the wheels.

the front motor mount needed to move to the left to correct the misalignment but was already all the way to the left. i loosened all the bolts to the front motor mount. the position of the rear wheel in the rear fender well was way left and there was really no room for more movement left to correct the wheel alignment.

this led me back to the swingarm. i look it off again. pulled the whole thing apart. the left bearing was worn. i'm replacing the swingarm bearings and biscuits. i'll see if that moves the swingarm back to a more neutral position. it looks to me like the position of the swingarm bearings in the swingarm can move the swingarm left or right. this may move the position of the rear wheel back toward the center of the rear fender well and give me the room i need to correct the alignment.

no specialty tools were needed to pull the swingarm bearings. just used assorted bolts and washers. i pulled the inner spacers first and then removed the bearings. the bearings are removed from inside to outside the swingarm.

 

[oldscoolz]

i said the front motor mount needed to move to the left to correct the misalignment. that's wrong. it needs to move to the right and there's room to do that at the front of the drivetrain. the problem is that there's no room for the swingarm and rear wheel to move to the left.

i've included some more pics. they've been helpful to me from other threads.

 

[dolt]

here's how i checked the alignment. leveled the frame by putting a level on the upper frame rails with the seat off and shimming my lift. put a level on the rear rotor to make sure the drivetrain was vertical. then made the front wheel vertical by putting a level on the front rotor and moving the front wheel until it was vertical. then put laser levels on the front and rear rotors. this showed misalignment of the wheels.

The devil is in the details. Using the upper frame rails to level the frame assumes that the frame leveling the frame rails sets the fork stem vertically "plumb"; I use a different check. I clamp a piece of flat steel bar to the frame and use a metal 90* square to insure that the bar is perpendicular to the frame. Then I attach my lasers to the front wheel that I have already set as vertically plumb (as you did) and shoot the lasers back up to the steel flat bar. If the wheel is vertically plumb and the frame level, the lasers marks on the bar should be equidistant on each side. If not, the frame "level" should be adjusted accordingly. The distance of the rotors from the wheel centerline should be checked first and any differences noted and accounted for when measuring the laser marks at the steel bar.

i said the front motor mount needed to move to the left to correct the misalignment. that's wrong. it needs to move to the right and there's room to do that at the front of the drivetrain. the problem is that there's no room for the swingarm and rear wheel to move to the left.

i've included some more pics. they've been helpful to me from other threads.

You are on the right track; however, you will be moving the complete drive train to the left, not just the swing arm and rear wheel which will also move the position of the wheel in the fender/chassis. Just do it, you will see.

Replace those "donuts". Another item you might consider is the Drive Train Stabilizers (AKA Bagger Nutz) from Sykes Performance. You can contact them atinfo@sykeperformance.com.



You can read about them in the linked thread which is a discussion/review of all the "bagger brace" systems. Start at #68 for information on the Sykes stabilizers. I have a set but have not installed the yet and I still get a bit of bagger wobble at 85mph or above in a long sweeper and I know my bike, chassis and drive train are aligned. I think the stabilizers will solve that problem.

How do the bagger stabilizers work?