Midnight Reign
Active Member
Yes new rings and file fit them to the cylinders after you hone them. cometic are good gaskets, but I have had great success with James gaskets. and buy them in kits like the top end kit you will need
1991 Evo base gaskets supply list
- Thread starter falconbrother
- Start date
Yes new rings and file fit them to the cylinders after you hone them. cometic are good gaskets, but I have had great success with James gaskets. and buy them in kits like the top end kit you will need
falconbrother
Member
Well, this is playing out pretty nice. I have all my gaskets on the way. This winter I pull those jugs. I'll let my guy have a look at them. If he says hone and rings I'll do that for sure. When I bought my bike someone had already done Screaming Eagle ignition, cams, S&S carb, Vance and Hines pipes, etc.. I don't know why it has such low miles to be a 91 model. The Vance and Hines pipes were brand new when I bough it.
The Harley shop wouldn't give me much history on it except to say that the previous owner had dropped the cash on it and then traded it in, which I'm cool with. The downside to this bike is the vibration at higher highway speeds. That split tank chrome cover vibrates and can be irritating at 80mph+. But, other than that, I love this old bike. It runs beautifully. Heck, I just did 300 miles today.
Well, the drive belt makes some noise that I can't figure out. Sort of a squeak, rubber sound.
The Harley shop wouldn't give me much history on it except to say that the previous owner had dropped the cash on it and then traded it in, which I'm cool with. The downside to this bike is the vibration at higher highway speeds. That split tank chrome cover vibrates and can be irritating at 80mph+. But, other than that, I love this old bike. It runs beautifully. Heck, I just did 300 miles today.
Well, the drive belt makes some noise that I can't figure out. Sort of a squeak, rubber sound.
dolt
Well-Known Member
OK, I will be the contrarion here. IIRC, the OEM base gasket is .010" thick. The .020" base gasket will increase deck height by .010" and reduce compression by about .20 points. Why not use the OEM base gasket thickness.
Don't know what the thickness of the OEM head gasket is but IIRC, they are about .050"-.060" thick. Replace them with .045" or even .030" Cometic MLS head gaskets to increase compression a bit. No worries about pushrod length, there is plenty of travel in the lifters to accomodate.
I would not put a ball hone in any Harley cylinder. Just because the cylinders are low mileage and the hone marks are visible doesn't mean they shouldn't be de-glazed. I have seen cylinders with many more miles where the hone cross hatch was visisble but would never have re-assembled without proper honing. Honing the cylinders and re-ringing is a good idea but have the cylinders honed by a machinist, don't stick a ball hone in a drill motor and have a go at it.
Definitely re-ring the cylinders but don't "file" the ends to set the ring gap. The ends must be perfectly square to each other or they could make contact when compressed and will cause problems. Have a machinist set the ring gaps and use the proper gapping tool to remove material if necessary.
Have the heads disassembled, cleaned up, valves lapped into seats and guide seals replaces, at a minimum. If you could manage a Serdi valve job in the budget, all the better.
You have an opportunity to freshen up the top end at a very modest cost and should take advantage of the opportunity to do so but, don't cut corners, do it right or you will most likely regret it. JMHO.
Midnight Reign
Active Member
not understanding the objection to the ball hone. I suggested it because you really have to make an effort to do any kind of damage with one of them, he's not trying to remove any metal just the break the glaze. Same for file fitting the rings, sure he can spend money with a machinest or buy one of those rotary ring files from Summit, but falconbrother says he used to be an aircraft mechanic, and based on that I figure he can handle something as simple as file fitting rings. I participated in my first engine rebuild when I was almost 13, freshening up 2 go cart motors with my father and grandfather and have hand filed every set of rings I have ever installed since then and not a single ring failure ever save 1, and a doubt very seriously that had anything to do with the way they were gapped as it was a scraper ring that broke in 2 places about 25% of the way round from the ring gap. This stuff isnt rocket science and with good shop practices and a little guidance I dont see why someone with his experience can't handle the lions share of the work on this job. JMO
dolt
Well-Known Member
You are entitled to your opinion; mine is just different.
All the Harley engines I have worked on have been performance builds, for my own bikes and those of friends and family members. I mock up the engine, measure everything and make whatever adjustments I can to improve the build; a very crude form of "blue printing". So I don't cut any corners and follow the "measure twice, cut once" rule but that's just me; it's his bike and he can go at it any way he chooses. I was just passing on what I would do based on my experience. I would agree that "it's not rocket science" but the devil is in the details.
The more important issue for the OP is in the details of the gasket thicknesses and taking advantage of the opportunity he has to optimize the performance of the bike at a very modest cost. I hope he takes advantage of the opportunity regardless of the means and methods he employs to complete the project and that's JMHO.
dolt
Well-Known Member
I didn't specifically address the ball hone and ring filing in my previous; time ran out and I could not edit my previous post.
My objections to the ball hone and hand filing stem from the fact that the OEM piston to cylinder fitment and ring gap are precision measurements and, IMHO, require precision tools, means and methods. I do not consider a ball hone or hand filing to set ring gap as precision tools and/or means and methods but, that is JMHO. The OP posted that he had never honed a cylinder before and a ball hone can remove metal if not used properly or the wrong ball "grit" is used.
The OP also said that he planned to leave the "finer machine work to an expert"; good idea IMHO. The piston to cylinder fitment should be measured by a machinist. The actual piston to cylinder fitment will determine the best way to complete the freshening up of the top end.
Midnight Reign
Active Member
dolt, first let me start by saying if you click on the "remember me " box when you log in, you wont time out, just something another forum member shared with me so I thought I would pass it on.
Secondly, I couldnt agree more about the importance of the gasket thickness and getting the most bang for his buck while he is in the motor that deep.
As to the issue of the ball hone, I will concede that there is a "possibility" of doing damage with one, but again IMO it is only a possibilty if done incorrectly, and as you point out, if done with the wrong grit stones.
File fitting the ring end gaps I will unashamedly stand by, and as defense to that position will point out that a great deal of gunsmithing is done by hand and to tighter tolerances than typicaly found in motor building.
Which brings me to my final point, that being, yes these motors are assembled with a certain amount of precision, but you do reach a point of diminishing returns, we are after all talking about what amounts to steam engine technology here. Yes it is evolved and most likely at the pinnacle of its developement, but the basic design has not changed much since the advent of the V Twin motor.
My point here is good shop practices and methodologies should always be observed but when working with an imperfect a design as these motors one should keep in mind the principal of the point of diminishing returns. In this situation it sounds like falconbrother is simply making a repair to a typical street riden motorcycle, and in no way would I consider his indy mechanics offer to repair his leak for $300 as cutting corners. But for that $300 I would seriously doubt that the indy mech. was going to pull BOTH jugs and go to the lengths you outlined in your replies, especially considering the fact there are only 24,000 mi. on this bike.
Both approaches are valid in thier own right and falconbrother will have to decide just how far he and his budget want to go. But over thinking the process and spending more time and money on a simple repair is akin to doing a stage 1 upgrade w/ pipes and air cleaner then spending a ton of money on having the bike Dyno tuned to the enth degree when a simple bit of tuning or dare I even say a canned map, will do just fine for the vast majority of riders.
In closing, I'd like to say I hope this thread is not being seen as arguementitive, as it is most definately not intended to be. I am actually enjoying the civil exchange of different points of view, and hope it is being recieved as such
Secondly, I couldnt agree more about the importance of the gasket thickness and getting the most bang for his buck while he is in the motor that deep.
As to the issue of the ball hone, I will concede that there is a "possibility" of doing damage with one, but again IMO it is only a possibilty if done incorrectly, and as you point out, if done with the wrong grit stones.
File fitting the ring end gaps I will unashamedly stand by, and as defense to that position will point out that a great deal of gunsmithing is done by hand and to tighter tolerances than typicaly found in motor building.
Which brings me to my final point, that being, yes these motors are assembled with a certain amount of precision, but you do reach a point of diminishing returns, we are after all talking about what amounts to steam engine technology here. Yes it is evolved and most likely at the pinnacle of its developement, but the basic design has not changed much since the advent of the V Twin motor.
My point here is good shop practices and methodologies should always be observed but when working with an imperfect a design as these motors one should keep in mind the principal of the point of diminishing returns. In this situation it sounds like falconbrother is simply making a repair to a typical street riden motorcycle, and in no way would I consider his indy mechanics offer to repair his leak for $300 as cutting corners. But for that $300 I would seriously doubt that the indy mech. was going to pull BOTH jugs and go to the lengths you outlined in your replies, especially considering the fact there are only 24,000 mi. on this bike.
Both approaches are valid in thier own right and falconbrother will have to decide just how far he and his budget want to go. But over thinking the process and spending more time and money on a simple repair is akin to doing a stage 1 upgrade w/ pipes and air cleaner then spending a ton of money on having the bike Dyno tuned to the enth degree when a simple bit of tuning or dare I even say a canned map, will do just fine for the vast majority of riders.
In closing, I'd like to say I hope this thread is not being seen as arguementitive, as it is most definately not intended to be. I am actually enjoying the civil exchange of different points of view, and hope it is being recieved as such
dolt
Well-Known Member
You will get no argument from me on any of the points your addressed in your last post. My responses to forum members that are dealing with repairs or upgrades are always posted in the context of how I would approach the repair or upgrade. Depending on the particular issue, I might offer some alternative approaches but again, approaches that I would consider in the same situation. If you will note, most of my posts are always ended with the caveat that the information posted is JMHO. Obviously, the posting member must decide how to address the issue as he/she sees fit under the circumstances.
I would also remind you that all of my work on these motors has been to increase performance, i.e., more compression, longer cams, ported heads, etc. and I believe more attention to detail and assembly is required regardless of the design imperfections. Pushing these motors to make 120TQ and 120HP demands more attention to precision measurements and assembly. By default, I approach a simple repair such as falconbrother is dealing with the same attitude but it certainly doesn't diminish the validity of a more simplistic approach.
I also enjoy a civil exchange of ideas; heck, I have even learned something from those exchanges.:s However, I have to disagree with the proposition that a canned map is a proper substitute for some dyno time for a Stage I upgrade, but JMHO.
No worries, I did not at any time percieve anything you posted as argumentative. Thanks for the "remember me" tip. :cheers
I would also remind you that all of my work on these motors has been to increase performance, i.e., more compression, longer cams, ported heads, etc. and I believe more attention to detail and assembly is required regardless of the design imperfections. Pushing these motors to make 120TQ and 120HP demands more attention to precision measurements and assembly. By default, I approach a simple repair such as falconbrother is dealing with the same attitude but it certainly doesn't diminish the validity of a more simplistic approach.
I also enjoy a civil exchange of ideas; heck, I have even learned something from those exchanges.:s However, I have to disagree with the proposition that a canned map is a proper substitute for some dyno time for a Stage I upgrade, but JMHO.
No worries, I did not at any time percieve anything you posted as argumentative. Thanks for the "remember me" tip. :cheers
And again, IMHO, I have to disagree with that statement.
For the vast majority of Harley riders, the Stage One is done to either cool the engine down or change the sound of the exhaust. In this case, a canned map or manual settings from a device like the Dobeck TFI is perfectly fine. The added cost of a dyno run is not necessary.
On the other hand, if the Stage One is being done to maximize performance, then a dyno run may be a justified expense. But most folks following this route don't stop at the Stage One and continue with upgraded cams, head work, etc.
Perhaps your statement was made from a strictly performance standpoint and I misunderstood it.
Midnight Reign
Active Member
Dr. Dolittle,
That was the point I am making, deciding when to say when. Every situation is going to be different and it is niegh on impossible to make sweeping generalizations, but it has been my observation that there are a lot of guys out there spending tons of money for only marginal gains in performance or efficency.
Heres the thing, we are a strange breed, freely giving undying loyalty to a brand that doesnt always seem to give back in kind,, and if we want to be honest about it to a product that really is quite dated. What was that quote from Willie G. a few years ago when there were waiting lists for new bikes? "this was the only product that he knew of that people would pay in advance for, wait 2 years to get it and it was broken when delievered from the factory" or something like that. Even with all of thier faults and flaws I would still rather own and ride Harley Davidson motorcycles then any other brand out there.
But with the economy the way it is, and no significant changes on the near horizon, I believe it is more prudent now to be ever cognizant of what I call the point of diminishing returns.
I run a small indy shop and do my share of performance upgrades and builds, but I always start by asking the customer what exactly do you want to accomplish with this build ? And, even though it will occasionally cost me work, I will have that conversation with them before doing anything else. The way I see it, there are times when in the end the customer wil be more happy having that money in his pocket to go ride his bike somewhere different and enjoy thier machine out on the road where it was meant to be.
I also have customers who get their ejoyment for making their bike just a little faster than the next guys, or a little louder, or a little shineyer. I have one guy that is gonna put a supercharger on his V-Rod this winter, (why? I think to myself would anyone spend that kind of money on a streetbike?) but it is his bike and thats what he wants to do, so guess what one of our winter projects is going to be when the weather cools in the fall. And, I am quite honestly really looking forward to that job, it should be alot of fun.
Anyhow the base point I was making at the start of all this, is that I think more Harley owners need to be honest with themseleves when figureing out the best approach for any given task. All that being said, lets build something really cool, just remember it cost money to be cool, how cool do you want to be?
That was the point I am making, deciding when to say when. Every situation is going to be different and it is niegh on impossible to make sweeping generalizations, but it has been my observation that there are a lot of guys out there spending tons of money for only marginal gains in performance or efficency.
Heres the thing, we are a strange breed, freely giving undying loyalty to a brand that doesnt always seem to give back in kind,, and if we want to be honest about it to a product that really is quite dated. What was that quote from Willie G. a few years ago when there were waiting lists for new bikes? "this was the only product that he knew of that people would pay in advance for, wait 2 years to get it and it was broken when delievered from the factory" or something like that. Even with all of thier faults and flaws I would still rather own and ride Harley Davidson motorcycles then any other brand out there.
But with the economy the way it is, and no significant changes on the near horizon, I believe it is more prudent now to be ever cognizant of what I call the point of diminishing returns.
I run a small indy shop and do my share of performance upgrades and builds, but I always start by asking the customer what exactly do you want to accomplish with this build ? And, even though it will occasionally cost me work, I will have that conversation with them before doing anything else. The way I see it, there are times when in the end the customer wil be more happy having that money in his pocket to go ride his bike somewhere different and enjoy thier machine out on the road where it was meant to be.
I also have customers who get their ejoyment for making their bike just a little faster than the next guys, or a little louder, or a little shineyer. I have one guy that is gonna put a supercharger on his V-Rod this winter, (why? I think to myself would anyone spend that kind of money on a streetbike?) but it is his bike and thats what he wants to do, so guess what one of our winter projects is going to be when the weather cools in the fall. And, I am quite honestly really looking forward to that job, it should be alot of fun.
Anyhow the base point I was making at the start of all this, is that I think more Harley owners need to be honest with themseleves when figureing out the best approach for any given task. All that being said, lets build something really cool, just remember it cost money to be cool, how cool do you want to be?