Just a thought when I read this, how old are the plug wires?
I also agree with chop about the red flag too.
08 sportster problem
- Thread starter 67hat34c
- Start date
Just a thought when I read this, how old are the plug wires?
I also agree with chop about the red flag too.
Hoople
Account Removed
Since this is not a warranty claim, it just may be the best thing to take it to another shop altogether. You probably don't have the tools to get the readings we need to know in order to troubleshoot this bike. You need a new set of eyes on this problem. I have seen it before. So many things have been tried, you start putting on New bugs yourself in an attempt to find the root cause of the original problem.
The fact is the OP is being stretched like a rubber band. He is not doing the work Himself and is in the middle between us and the dealership. Maybe I am wrong and finding the problem is "right around the corner" like you say, but I think your beginning to duplicate your work.
If you were doing the work YOURSELF, I would stick with this problem to the very end. But since your not and your just in the middle,,, I would consider a different approach.
The fact is the OP is being stretched like a rubber band. He is not doing the work Himself and is in the middle between us and the dealership. Maybe I am wrong and finding the problem is "right around the corner" like you say, but I think your beginning to duplicate your work.
If you were doing the work YOURSELF, I would stick with this problem to the very end. But since your not and your just in the middle,,, I would consider a different approach.
It is warranty. Problem started during warranty and they did 100% of the work. I have not paid a dime after the super tuner. Warranty through HD and the dealer. This is the only reason I am bringing it here as no one else would warranty it.
They had issues with dyno around same time they had to replces the sensors etc. If it was a dyno error then I would think other bikes would have problems. Orlando HD is a big shop, 7 day a week and they move a bunch of bikes through service every day and sell a bunch of new ones so suspect dyno gets used heavily.
They claim to have tested fuel pressure and it ck out.
2008 model so plug wires are 2 and had 15k on them when problem started.
Has to be some type of glitch with ECU itself or fuel pump.
If fuel pump is ruled out then I will have them pull ECU off of another bike and put in the canned stage one download and try it out. Was told by the tech that it is more involved than simple swap but could be done.
They had issues with dyno around same time they had to replces the sensors etc. If it was a dyno error then I would think other bikes would have problems. Orlando HD is a big shop, 7 day a week and they move a bunch of bikes through service every day and sell a bunch of new ones so suspect dyno gets used heavily.
They claim to have tested fuel pressure and it ck out.
2008 model so plug wires are 2 and had 15k on them when problem started.
Has to be some type of glitch with ECU itself or fuel pump.
If fuel pump is ruled out then I will have them pull ECU off of another bike and put in the canned stage one download and try it out. Was told by the tech that it is more involved than simple swap but could be done.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hoople
Account Removed
10/4 on Warranty. Now I understand.
Don't look at the ECM as 1 single element. It is actually 3 entities. (1) The semi-components, (2) the Delphi Firmware and (3) the SEST look up tables.
I would bet a grand, there is not an issue with the physical unit. They may change it out and say that was it, but I am telling you from experience,, To have such a unique type of problem and it be a semi-component malfunction....maybe 1 in 10,000.
Delphi Firmware. Possible but once again a really remote possibility.
SEST look up tables.. Now we are talking. Absolutely where I would focus my attention.
Intake leak. Absolutely where I would focus my attention.
As far as a Dyno issue. It very well can be the exhaust analyzer they are using is out of calibration. What Chopper said earlier is absolutely true. If they have a wide band unit, it must be Free air & Heater calibrated. If it is an Infra-Red model, then air leaks, filters, sample tube contamination, light source output etc etc all need to be maintained. You MUST calibrated these units (IR) to a certified gas bottle sample. An electronic calibration is absolutely meaningless in most cases. They may say "it auto calibrates" but trust me, unless you see a "Scotts" calibration bottle, forget it.
How would you rate yourself as far as being mechanically inclined. Do you want to fix this problem yourself or do you just want info to feed to the dealership. Are you equipped with tools. Do you own your SEST VCI.
Don't look at the ECM as 1 single element. It is actually 3 entities. (1) The semi-components, (2) the Delphi Firmware and (3) the SEST look up tables.
I would bet a grand, there is not an issue with the physical unit. They may change it out and say that was it, but I am telling you from experience,, To have such a unique type of problem and it be a semi-component malfunction....maybe 1 in 10,000.
Delphi Firmware. Possible but once again a really remote possibility.
SEST look up tables.. Now we are talking. Absolutely where I would focus my attention.
Intake leak. Absolutely where I would focus my attention.
As far as a Dyno issue. It very well can be the exhaust analyzer they are using is out of calibration. What Chopper said earlier is absolutely true. If they have a wide band unit, it must be Free air & Heater calibrated. If it is an Infra-Red model, then air leaks, filters, sample tube contamination, light source output etc etc all need to be maintained. You MUST calibrated these units (IR) to a certified gas bottle sample. An electronic calibration is absolutely meaningless in most cases. They may say "it auto calibrates" but trust me, unless you see a "Scotts" calibration bottle, forget it.
How would you rate yourself as far as being mechanically inclined. Do you want to fix this problem yourself or do you just want info to feed to the dealership. Are you equipped with tools. Do you own your SEST VCI.
Want them to fix it, they did it.
Is the SEST VCI the super tuner? if so I do have it. I do not have the cable or the cd though.
Dont know what type of dyno they have but I have some of the sheets at home with a name on them. Can you tell from that?
Is the SEST VCI the super tuner? if so I do have it. I do not have the cable or the cd though.
Dont know what type of dyno they have but I have some of the sheets at home with a name on them. Can you tell from that?
Last edited by a moderator:
Hoople
Account Removed
If you want them to fix it, this repair from where we are, may be hard to correct. This is the reason why I say that....
We ask/say to you. "We need to know if your fuel pump pressure is correct. What is the pressure at idle and at 3000 RPM"
It's not your fault but all you can say is "The mechanic said the pressure is OK".
Well that tells me absolutely nothing. I can not tell you how many time I have seen techs take a voltage reading incorrectly thinking they were doing it correctly. Once they were showed where they went wrong, you see their eyes roll. They now realize how many times in the past they made a wrong reading.
We say 67Hat34C, "sounds like you may have a intake vacuum leak. Check it with propane".
It's not your fault but what can you say other than "the mechanic said it has no vacuum leaks"
Once again that tells me nothing.
You see where I am going with this. I am not blaming you. It's this 1000 mile piece of coax cable between me and your bike that is killing me.
We ask/say to you. "We need to know if your fuel pump pressure is correct. What is the pressure at idle and at 3000 RPM"
It's not your fault but all you can say is "The mechanic said the pressure is OK".
Well that tells me absolutely nothing. I can not tell you how many time I have seen techs take a voltage reading incorrectly thinking they were doing it correctly. Once they were showed where they went wrong, you see their eyes roll. They now realize how many times in the past they made a wrong reading.
We say 67Hat34C, "sounds like you may have a intake vacuum leak. Check it with propane".
It's not your fault but what can you say other than "the mechanic said it has no vacuum leaks"
Once again that tells me nothing.
You see where I am going with this. I am not blaming you. It's this 1000 mile piece of coax cable between me and your bike that is killing me.
I think what Hoop is trying to say (and I agree with him) is that not all mechanics in the dealerships DO know what they are doing. Some are just there for the pay check and care little about the customers problems.
Never take it for granted that if they tell you they checked something that it was done or done right.:s Always try to confirm what they did one way or the other.
Never take it for granted that if they tell you they checked something that it was done or done right.:s Always try to confirm what they did one way or the other.
If not the fuel pump assembly then I did plan to do a little cking myself such as vacuum Leak and engine compression etc. Would like to find a way to ck volts at coil while it is running, some type of adaptor would be needed i think.
My bad luck with mechanical items started 3yrs ago and the harley problem is just par for the course. You would not believe the stuff that has happened and none of it my doing. I think I need to make a sacrafice to the mechanical god or something.
Anyhow I am taking in all advice and opinions. I know enough to be dangerous but know who to ask when I cant do it.
My bad luck with mechanical items started 3yrs ago and the harley problem is just par for the course. You would not believe the stuff that has happened and none of it my doing. I think I need to make a sacrafice to the mechanical god or something.
Anyhow I am taking in all advice and opinions. I know enough to be dangerous but know who to ask when I cant do it.
Hoople
Account Removed
I know it is off Topic but you have to hear this true story. For 10 or so years I was repairing automotive shop equipment. Front end alignment machines, wheel balancers, scope analyzers, exhaust analyzers & similar garage equipment.
So I get this service call and the owner says he wants his front end alignment machine calibrated.
No problem, do it all the time. I go down and calibrate it. (it was not really that far out which should have made a light go on above my head). I finish up the job, say "Thank You" and leave.
Two days later the owner of the shop calls back and says, "Come back down here and re-check this machine, the cars I align are going down the street sideways".
Ok, so I go back and go through the entire procedure once again (2 hour job) and it's still perfect like it was when I left the 1st time. I told him to try it one more time. Can't explain why but maybe it was a fluke.
Two days later I get another call and the guy says "It's worse now than it has ever been. Get back down here".
This time I go down there and I said. "Pick a car. Any car in the building and lets align it together. This I have to see with my own eyes".
Well to make a long story short, the 1st thing you need to do before you align a front end is to perform "run-out" of the alignment heads you mount to the rims on the car. On this model in order to do this, you must mount the head to the rim, and rotate the WHEEL in 90* steps and hit a calibrate button. This procedure will cancel out any rim or mounting irregularities. Well it seems the owners mechanic thought he would save time by rotating the HEAD instead of the TIRE in 90* steps and hitting the calibration button.
But the only problem with that is, inside the head, there is a pivot pendulum which is pulled by gravity to find True vertical and when you turn the head upside down, the pendulum will just crash to an extreme left or right side.
I could not believe my eyes. Since I was in no fear of being POOFED, I told him why his way would NOT work. I even removed the cover off the Head just to show him how it all worked.
Guess what this mechanic said to me??? Come on guess.
He said,,, "I don't agree. I have been doing it this way for YEARS".
So I get this service call and the owner says he wants his front end alignment machine calibrated.
No problem, do it all the time. I go down and calibrate it. (it was not really that far out which should have made a light go on above my head). I finish up the job, say "Thank You" and leave.
Two days later the owner of the shop calls back and says, "Come back down here and re-check this machine, the cars I align are going down the street sideways".
Ok, so I go back and go through the entire procedure once again (2 hour job) and it's still perfect like it was when I left the 1st time. I told him to try it one more time. Can't explain why but maybe it was a fluke.
Two days later I get another call and the guy says "It's worse now than it has ever been. Get back down here".
This time I go down there and I said. "Pick a car. Any car in the building and lets align it together. This I have to see with my own eyes".
Well to make a long story short, the 1st thing you need to do before you align a front end is to perform "run-out" of the alignment heads you mount to the rims on the car. On this model in order to do this, you must mount the head to the rim, and rotate the WHEEL in 90* steps and hit a calibrate button. This procedure will cancel out any rim or mounting irregularities. Well it seems the owners mechanic thought he would save time by rotating the HEAD instead of the TIRE in 90* steps and hitting the calibration button.
But the only problem with that is, inside the head, there is a pivot pendulum which is pulled by gravity to find True vertical and when you turn the head upside down, the pendulum will just crash to an extreme left or right side.
I could not believe my eyes. Since I was in no fear of being POOFED, I told him why his way would NOT work. I even removed the cover off the Head just to show him how it all worked.
Guess what this mechanic said to me??? Come on guess.
He said,,, "I don't agree. I have been doing it this way for YEARS".
My problems started with our boat. Little background, this thing was my pride and joy, Last survey stated that this was the finest example of a vintage Hatteras that the surveyer had ever seen and he was right on the mark. (still got some photos on my desk top if you want to see her.)
Had top side painted by a crook in Daytona couple of years ago.. Painted from rub rail up including bridge and cockpit. Work was horrable and the guy left the country and had the Daytona marina Hold the thing hostage until we paid his bill. 6000 paint job. You would not believe the stuff they did and did not do.
Year later, had it hauled at Cape Marina, Pt canaveral FL to have bottom repainted. They were known to be good facility etc etc. Opted not to do work myself. Boat is Hatteras 34c. They Hauled with Travel Lift and scarred the hull in 4 places , about 12" x12" area each, Lift slings had debries on them, likely blasting sand. They take boat to blast pit and use water blast with sand mix to remove old bottom paint. Anyhow boat is painted Fighting Lady Yellow and Awl-Grip paint. you can not touch up awlgrip as the resins float to top in cure process and if you buff it it will ruin it. They insisted they could repari. Well they could not match the color, had 4 24"x24" almost orange spots on the sides and they claim it was ready to launch. Well I lost my mind. They then hired someone else to consult and they again claim they could touch up. This time they painted most of the hull and then feathered it in at the bow. Well they had to color sand and buff so they ruined the finish again. Never resolved that as we sold her last year.
Next was my Accura MDX at 117k the trans went out. Very common for 3rd gear in this vehicle to fail. Made mistake of going to AAMCO. They quoted me a repair price and verified internal problem then a couple days later they call and said wrong quote and raised it. Finished and it seemed ok. Within a couple ofdays the torque converter started to slip, made grinding noise. took it back. they said nothing wrong. Took it back again then they said oh the linear solonoids are bad and charged me 600 more. I called bull on this as they cant all go bad at once. well it did not fix it. they refused refund. they rebuilt trans 2 more times and then said it was my engine then TCU etc etc. I took to another builder and found problem was with a lock up valve body. 2 o rings cut. they did not replace the valve body as i instructed but said it was good to go and it seemed ok for several months then the sound returned. Took it back to second shop and he could not hear the problem he said not concerned with it comming in and out of lockup constantly as that is normal. Well it is not. I got rid of the car next day. Did not want to fight anymore and also the second shop is expert for my suit against aamco. Anyhow I deduced the thing was comming in and out of lock up when the Knock sensors were hearing the sound that was similar frequency to engine knock, it tried to retard timing then took out of lockup when it felt engine being overloaded. There is only so much you can deal with before you throw in towel. I spent over 6k on that transmission in 12 months. I still hope to recover some when I file against AAMCO shop. Oh by the way i caught AAMCO people lying to me on several things, of course they deny everthing but I know what kind of people this particular shop employ. This is very short recap , much more involved including taking to dealer to have them confirm no engine and tcu problems etc etc.
Back to boat. It has 2 crusader 454's. I had a shop in Jaxonville rebuild one of the q jets and they seemed to have done a good job so I called them and purchased one already done for other motor as did not want down time. Got carb and installed. Started and it would not run properly lots of stuff out of whack. Spring on secondary not set right, choke rod was bent secondary rod bent and held upper secondary butterfly open, float set wrong etc. So i sent them the old carb and asked that they build it. Warranty. So they did, I was going to send other back once got the old one done. Got old one back and installed. Started and it raced up and would not back down. Found they replaced some of the external hardware with parts that were exactly opposite of what they needed. I removed parts from the New carb and placed on this one and got her to run fine. I sent them the first one back and never herd from them again. National Carburators has been there for quite a while and has done many many of these so why the two screw ups ?
Sons Toyota Celica was another issue that went on and on and on.
Now the Harley. Well i am warn out. Up side is that I learned a whole bunch about Honda automatic trans, Quadra jets and toyota. Now learing a whole bunch about the Harley.
Do I screw up stuff, you bet but I keep at it until it is right. Pulled bad one with the marine Gen. Old Onan mcck. Wanted to clean carbon deposits so I ran a little water down the carb , well More is better right? Wrong. Thought I cracked cylinder. Pulled both heads and inspected for cracks, none. Reinstalled with new gaskets and had trouble with one of them. Well cranked it up and agiain water in cyl. This could have been a 10k disaster(replacement cost on new gen) Turns out I over torqued bolts and messed up one head gasket. Replace and ran it but it would not run right, no more water in oil and compression was 140lbs. I had a friend come over and he hung his head over and observed the breaker box open where points are(no distributor) said see that big blue plume at points? not supposed to be there, points and condensor. Replaced and she was back to 100%.
Had top side painted by a crook in Daytona couple of years ago.. Painted from rub rail up including bridge and cockpit. Work was horrable and the guy left the country and had the Daytona marina Hold the thing hostage until we paid his bill. 6000 paint job. You would not believe the stuff they did and did not do.
Year later, had it hauled at Cape Marina, Pt canaveral FL to have bottom repainted. They were known to be good facility etc etc. Opted not to do work myself. Boat is Hatteras 34c. They Hauled with Travel Lift and scarred the hull in 4 places , about 12" x12" area each, Lift slings had debries on them, likely blasting sand. They take boat to blast pit and use water blast with sand mix to remove old bottom paint. Anyhow boat is painted Fighting Lady Yellow and Awl-Grip paint. you can not touch up awlgrip as the resins float to top in cure process and if you buff it it will ruin it. They insisted they could repari. Well they could not match the color, had 4 24"x24" almost orange spots on the sides and they claim it was ready to launch. Well I lost my mind. They then hired someone else to consult and they again claim they could touch up. This time they painted most of the hull and then feathered it in at the bow. Well they had to color sand and buff so they ruined the finish again. Never resolved that as we sold her last year.
Next was my Accura MDX at 117k the trans went out. Very common for 3rd gear in this vehicle to fail. Made mistake of going to AAMCO. They quoted me a repair price and verified internal problem then a couple days later they call and said wrong quote and raised it. Finished and it seemed ok. Within a couple ofdays the torque converter started to slip, made grinding noise. took it back. they said nothing wrong. Took it back again then they said oh the linear solonoids are bad and charged me 600 more. I called bull on this as they cant all go bad at once. well it did not fix it. they refused refund. they rebuilt trans 2 more times and then said it was my engine then TCU etc etc. I took to another builder and found problem was with a lock up valve body. 2 o rings cut. they did not replace the valve body as i instructed but said it was good to go and it seemed ok for several months then the sound returned. Took it back to second shop and he could not hear the problem he said not concerned with it comming in and out of lockup constantly as that is normal. Well it is not. I got rid of the car next day. Did not want to fight anymore and also the second shop is expert for my suit against aamco. Anyhow I deduced the thing was comming in and out of lock up when the Knock sensors were hearing the sound that was similar frequency to engine knock, it tried to retard timing then took out of lockup when it felt engine being overloaded. There is only so much you can deal with before you throw in towel. I spent over 6k on that transmission in 12 months. I still hope to recover some when I file against AAMCO shop. Oh by the way i caught AAMCO people lying to me on several things, of course they deny everthing but I know what kind of people this particular shop employ. This is very short recap , much more involved including taking to dealer to have them confirm no engine and tcu problems etc etc.
Back to boat. It has 2 crusader 454's. I had a shop in Jaxonville rebuild one of the q jets and they seemed to have done a good job so I called them and purchased one already done for other motor as did not want down time. Got carb and installed. Started and it would not run properly lots of stuff out of whack. Spring on secondary not set right, choke rod was bent secondary rod bent and held upper secondary butterfly open, float set wrong etc. So i sent them the old carb and asked that they build it. Warranty. So they did, I was going to send other back once got the old one done. Got old one back and installed. Started and it raced up and would not back down. Found they replaced some of the external hardware with parts that were exactly opposite of what they needed. I removed parts from the New carb and placed on this one and got her to run fine. I sent them the first one back and never herd from them again. National Carburators has been there for quite a while and has done many many of these so why the two screw ups ?
Sons Toyota Celica was another issue that went on and on and on.
Now the Harley. Well i am warn out. Up side is that I learned a whole bunch about Honda automatic trans, Quadra jets and toyota. Now learing a whole bunch about the Harley.
Do I screw up stuff, you bet but I keep at it until it is right. Pulled bad one with the marine Gen. Old Onan mcck. Wanted to clean carbon deposits so I ran a little water down the carb , well More is better right? Wrong. Thought I cracked cylinder. Pulled both heads and inspected for cracks, none. Reinstalled with new gaskets and had trouble with one of them. Well cranked it up and agiain water in cyl. This could have been a 10k disaster(replacement cost on new gen) Turns out I over torqued bolts and messed up one head gasket. Replace and ran it but it would not run right, no more water in oil and compression was 140lbs. I had a friend come over and he hung his head over and observed the breaker box open where points are(no distributor) said see that big blue plume at points? not supposed to be there, points and condensor. Replaced and she was back to 100%.