'02 RK, won't start: need help with troubleshooting

[vtbikers]

Did I read the post right the starter makes all the noises that a starter makes but the engine does not turn over? So the engine is not turning over or not starting?

 

[Technologist]

Yep. Starter engages, and I hear the cranking, but there is no "fire"... lacking a better description. Not sure what you mean by "turning over or not starting".

I even tried silly testing it.

Attempt at normal start (everything in place, as it should be):
Starter engages, engine will not turn over. I know the starter is engaging because I also tried starting in gear, WITHOUT pulling in the clutch... bike jumps forward.

Attempt to start with plugs in heads, BUT wires from coil NOT connected:
Same result...Starter engages, engine will not turn over. I also tried starting in gear, WITHOUT pulling in the clutch... bike jumps forward.

In my thinking, that eliminates the starter as the problem. It also means that "no spark" is the problem (because it acts the same, with or without wires connected).

So it HAS to be bad plugs, bad wires, bad coil, or bad crankshaft sensor (which tells the ECM not to let the bike start). Does that sound right?

BRB, gonna go try wiggling the cable bundles, in case it is an intermittent short...

Tried starting it while wiggling the cable bundle... thinking there could be a short in the Crankshaft Position Sensor... still wont start.

Took off right access panel, found where the Crankshaft Position Sensor cable ends, and connects to the ingition system. Opened the connector, and checked resistance TO the sensor. It was "Infinite / Open". It should have some resistance, RIGHT?

Also, I checked the engine codes... there are none stored. However, all my Google searches say that when the Crankshaft Position Sensor fails, it usually doesn't throw a code... so I could be on the right track.

Any help is appreciated, especially if someone thinks I am going about this wrong!

 

[NEWHD74FAN]

One final thing, does your bike have security system type TSSM or the one without TSM? Since you have no spark, I would be really suspicious of the CPS around $40 and is easily replaced (may try moving a fridge magnet near the sensor while monitoring the resistance, as it detects movement kinda like a "Hall effect" sensor as I understand it), then it comes a juggling act...I have been fighting a similar thermal intermittant problem on my ride, though it has worked fine until last week.

 

[Technologist]

One final thing, does your bike have security system type TSSM or the one without TSM? Since you have no spark, I would be really suspicious of the CPS around $40 and is easily replaced (may try moving a fridge magnet near the sensor while monitoring the resistance, as it detects movement kinda like a "Hall effect" sensor as I understand it), then it comes a juggling act...I have been fighting a similar thermal intermittant problem on my ride, though it has worked fine until last week.

I don't know which it has (nufamiliar with the terms), but it has security built in. I have the push button key fob, which when pressed and held makes the turn signals flash 2 times, and cut out the ignition circuit. When I want to de-alarm, I press the fob button 2 times quickly (like double click on a computer mouse), and the turn signals flash once. I do not have the HD Siren (and extra 80 something bucks).

Funny that you mentioned security system. About a week before this "No Start" condition happened, I tried to de-alarm the bike with the key Fob.... nothing happened. I figured the battery died, so I put in a new one. Still didn't work (although I assumed it wiped the programming). So I had to de-alarm the other way (using turn signals to punch in the 5 digit code). That worked, and I was able to get home.

Once home, I re-married BOTH key Fobs to the bike.... and they both work. Went for a ride without problems....

I went for another ride the next day, it was hard starting, but I thought that may have been because I didn't put it on the battery tender overnight. Went back home, put it on the tender, and assumed everything would be fine.

But it was just a few days later that the bike wouldn't start... You REALLY don't think it is the alarm system, do you? I mean, the starter works (which it won't do when the alarm is set).

Thanks again for helping troubleshoot. I am leaning heavily to the Crank Sensor.... the bad news is that NO ONE has it in stock!

 

[TQuentin1]

Try taking the sensor out and seeing if it is covered with fine metal fuzz. If it is really bad, you can try cleaning it off, and see if it works. But that will not be definitive. MIGHT work, but if it doesn't, nothing is learned. If it does start, I would still replace that sensor.

With all this attempting to start the bike, the battery is taking a beating. Do you have a battery tender that you can plug in to the battery? Might want to get one.

TQ

 

[Technologist]

Try taking the sensor out and seeing if it is covered with fine metal fuzz. If it is really bad, you can try cleaning it off, and see if it works. But that will not be definitive. MIGHT work, but if it doesn't, nothing is learned. If it does start, I would still replace that sensor.

With all this attempting to start the bike, the battery is taking a beating. Do you have a battery tender that you can plug in to the battery? Might want to get one.

TQ

Just finished inspecting the sensor (great minds think alike!!!). Took it out, it was clean (just a little oil on it). No Fuzz. Center has a silver hole, which is magnetic... was clean. Looks like 2 little "eyeballs" or sensors on either side of the magnet... they looked clean too! Reinstalled, tried starting it... Same as before (normal starter noise, but engine doesn't start).

And yes, I have a battery tender... I usually keep the bike on it all the time, just to keep the battery in good condition!

and NEWHD74FAN - figured out the difference between TSM and TSSM. Mine uses the push button fob, which is TSM. But again, if alarm is set, I don't get any starter noise (the whole ignition system is cut out, which is NORMAL). If I deactivate, then IT SHOULD start... but it isn't right now.


ARGHHHHHHHHHH!

 

[STEVE07]

Have you tried just taking a test light,turning on the ignition and checking to see if there is power to the ign. side of the coil

 

[Technologist]

Have you tried just taking a test light,turning on the ignition and checking to see if there is power to the ign. side of the coil

I have not. Didn't think to try it, and not even sure HOW I would do it. Also, what would it show? If I do have a faulty Crank Sensor, wouldn't there be no power there also?

Just thinking out loud here...

Will determining power at the coil point me to a specific problem, or eliminate a specific problem?

Not being argumentative, just trying to flow chart the logic. And I do not claim to be an expert on ignition systems... or even understand the whole flow chart for the system.

OK, troubleshooting for the day is done.... in addition to frustration, it started to rain!

Gonna go crack a few beers, and meditate for an answer.

Thanks all for helping (although not solved yet!).

I'll check the thread again later... and at the same time will check to see if I can find the Crankshaft sensor and cable in a nearby state... so I can try to fix it tomorrow, rather than wait for a local store to get delivery.

If anyone else reads this thread, and can point out things I haven't tried yet, please let me know.

Thanks ALL!!

 

[Technologist]

Bike is FIXED!!!

Thanks to all that helped out here... Specifically:
NEWHD74FAN
TQuentin1
ZoomerHD
R. Lewis
Stev07
vtbikers
and of course, Glider... whose troubleshooting manuals show up in EVERY google search I make about Harleys...

I "decided" it was the Crankshaft Position Sensor. Called the nearby HD Stores, and no one had it in stock. Dejected, I kept calling stores in nearby states, to find it and fix the bike before the weekend was done.

Finally found a sensor, about 100 miles round trip from the house.

The end of the story is this: I got home, removed the old sensor and plugged in the new sensor (bare wire ends into the plug, did not make it permanent).... and after days of troubleshooting, THEN trying to find the part.... the bike turned over IMMEDIATELY and ran like a champ!

Now all I have to do is run the cable through the loom, along the frame rail, add the plug to the end, and go out RIDING!

THANKS all... and if you are ever in my neck of the woods, 1st (through 3rd) beer is on me....

SHINY SHIDE UP!!

 

[glider]

glad to see that someone uses the search features to find info here.

Glad you found the problem.