AMSOIL- A brief history

glider · May 13th, 2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadking070

Stop the presses!!!! I havent seen any data but I thought that amsoil was the best.

By far not the best.

BUT....The Syn3 is about as bad as it gets IMO

gs34 · May 13th, 2009, 10:03 PM

The discussion of the merits of one brand of oil over another could literally go on forever. And it is as personal as the type of underwear you choose.....and just about as subjective!
With todays manufacturing practices, quality control, and strict industry regulation, it is just about impossible to buy a bad oil.
Choose the one you like (for whatever reason) according to what matches your equipment manufacturors specifications.
Change it according to the published recommendations, or more often if you see fit.
Buy good filters, and change them often.
Also keep your air filters clean and changed, as the dirt that gets by it will eventually wind up in your oil.
Bottom line is this...regardless of your choice of oil. Nothing beats good maintenance practices.
Also, here is a listing of the major classifications of oil.

Oil Groupings. American Petroleum Institute (API) has defined five groups (I through V) of base lubricating oils. The system established three groups (I-III) of paraffinic base oils based on levels of saturates, sulfur, and viscosity index (VI), as well as PAO-based oils (IV) and ester, PAG and other oils (V):

Group I. Mineral oils refined using the historical techniques (i.e., solvent extraction of aromatics, solvent dewaxing, hydrofining to reduce sulfur content). This processing produces mineral oils with sulfur levels typically greater than 0.1% with viscosity index (VI) of approximately 90.
Group II. Mildly hydrocracked mineral oils with conventional solvent extraction of aromatics, solvent dewaxing, and more severe hydrofining to reduce sulfur levels to less than 0.1% (typically 0.3%), as well as removing double bonds from some compounds. Viscosity index is approximately 90-100.
There is now an informal Group II+ (not an official API definition) which emerged out of the need to describe base oils with a meaningfully higher viscosity index than the 100 than is typical of most Group II base oils. Group II+ base oils typically have VI in the range of 108 to 115. These base oils offer performance advantages over Group II in some passenger car motor oil applications, specifically related to balancing volatility with low temperature viscometrics.
Group III. Severely hydrotreated mineral oils with sulfur content between 0.001 and 0.01%; VI in excess of 120. These are considered VHVI (very high viscosity index) mineral base stocks. They behave like synthetics in VI but have much higher pour points (-20C versus -54C for PAO) which must be modified with pour point depressants for lower temperature use. They have lower oxidation stability than Group IV or V oils. These are made in proprietary processes by Shell, Exxon, and others.
New Gas-to-Liquid base stock lubricating oils are being developed for market introduction in 2005 that will compete with Group III and PAO at costs similar to Group I. These will enter the passenger car motor oil market in response to demands for more 0W oils. They are created using catalysis of natural gas and have properties similar to PAO.
Group IV. Poly-alpha-olefin (PAO) synthetic oils with VI of 125-150. PAO significantly outperforms Group III in low temperature applications without the need for pour point depressant additives.
Group V. Esters, polyethers, polyalkylene-glycol (PAG) synthetic oils with various VI ranging between 100 and 175.
Esters are hygroscopic, causing water to enter the oil; and reactive, adding natural detergency, seal swell, and additive solubility to oil characteristics

smitty901 · May 13th, 2009, 10:29 PM

can someone tell me the legal definition of premium oil.
No because there is none anyone can label their product premium it is meaningless
Also a big factor in what oil is best for a use is the additives in it.
Many additives that help reduce wear and protect engines from heat are either not used or greatly reduce in newer auto oils The EPA required this. However some oils for other types of engines have not been reduced as much.
As for other uses lubes for gears while you may get away with ruining engine oil in a gear box I am not sure it is the best.
I live in Wisconsin I do not need a white paper to prove if I have 20/50 brand X oil and 20/50 true syn oil that when it is 0 degrees in my garage the syn will pour much better than the standard oil, same with the gear lubes.
This main point of this thread was not weather amsoil is a good product, I have agreed to a point that it is.
It is not as good as they claim nor is it the greatest for every use.
The point was how they market it, and the way they invade every web site forum and any other media that the topic of oil comes up in. over 20 years ago they were doing the same thing in the trucking industry.
This site gets members that join up and wait for a chance to plug amsoil no other reason. Why should we support a company like that when there are other great products that don't pull this.

STEVE07 · May 16th, 2009, 09:30 AM

On a side note here.Canadian Tire carries Amsoil products,WHY? Because one of the biggest shareholders in that corporation is one of the highest members of the Amsoil pyramid and he gets a personal royalty for every can of oil or additive they sell.

White Mts. Rider · May 22nd, 2009, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEVE07

My opinion of Amsoil is quite low,as many of you know.This is not so much because of the product,but because of the way it is marketed.They use multi level marketing,or pyramid marketing which while not illegal is immoral in my opinion,below are some facts,I have researched them and found them to be accurate

Corporate structure
Amsoil markets their products through a Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) network of Dealers who sell to defined customer types known as wholesale customers, retail accounts and commercial accounts.

Amsoil also wholly owns and manages a MLM subsidiary called Altrum, which markets multivitamins, water filters, cleaning products and gardening fertilizer.[3]

Multi-level marketing (MLM), also known as Network Marketing, is a marketing strategy that compensates promoters of direct selling companies not only for product sales they personally generate, but also for the sales of others they introduced to the company. The products and company are usually marketed directly to consumers and potential business partners by means of relationship referrals and word of mouth marketing.[1].

The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) issued a decision, In re Amway Corp., in 1979 in which it indicated that multi-level marketing was not illegal per se in the United States. However, Amway was found guilty of price fixing (by requiring "independent" distributors to sell at the low price) and making exaggerated income claims.[8]

The FTC advises that multi-level marketing organizations with greater incentives for recruitment than product sales are to be viewed skeptically. The FTC also warns that the practice of getting commissions from recruiting new members is outlawed in most states as "pyramiding".[6] In April 2006, it proposed a Business Opportunity Rule intended to require all sellers of business opportunities—including MLMs—to provide enough information to enable prospective buyers to make an informed decision about their probability of earning money.

In March 2008, the FTC removed Network Marketing (MLM) companies from the proposed Business Opportunity Rule:

The revised proposal, however, would not reach multi-level marketing companies or certain companies that may have been swept inadvertently into scope of the April 2006 proposal.[9]

Unfortunately Amsoil falls into this last category and is still operating
Steve

I'm not sure Amway is still in business but didn't they operate in the same kind of way? I was invited to one of Amway's meetings one time and I went with a friend. We both left the meeting very skeptical of how they do business.

hd4evr · May 22nd, 2009, 10:13 AM

Amsoil is pyramid sales. That, to me, (Edit)! The whole "Amsoil is best" people sound like they've been brainwashed! I get tired of going on these forums and feeling like I'm reading an Amsoil commercial all the time.

STAFF NOTES:

A Friendly Reminder - Harley Davidson Community

Billua · May 22nd, 2009, 12:51 PM

This thing really is quite ridiculous.

I found out what oil was best for my application using oil analysis. For my Cummins powered trucks, I have tried about 4 different brands of oil. Ran them all 15 thousand miles and then sent to oil to Blackstone for an independent analysis.

The Amsoil 15/40 always came back with the best numbers. It is a quality product, competitively priced, so I run it.

Now, as far as the HD goes, I am no problem putting Amsoil 20/50 in it as it is a quality synthetic, again competitive priced and easy for me to buy. After I switched to this oil, I noticed the lifter chatter went away. I have no temp indicators on the bike so I can not speak to temp decreases.

The long and short if it is most all the oils spoken about here are quality oils and will provide the proper protection if changed on a regular schedule. Most of us will not see an oil related engine failure in our lifetimes following that program.

I am using Spectro 6 speed in the trans and Spectro Chain case oil...The Spectro costs me more and I have to pay for shipping, but it is also a great product. The trans definitely shifts better with the Spectro...

So, what is best, Mopar, Chevy, Ford?
Chocolate, vanilla, strawberry?

Cheers!

Vibratinharley · May 22nd, 2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkelley

Thanks.

I use Spectro, and Amsoil. Just curious about opinions and reasoning.

ME too. I use Amsoil in engine, Spectro in transmission and HD in primary. Works great for me. Been doing it for years . Don't plan on changing unless HD comes out with a water cooled dresser. I mainly use Amsoil in the engine for the protection from the breakdown from heat that regular dino oil can't handle. My $.02

R. Lewis · May 23rd, 2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Mts. Rider

I'm not sure Amway is still in business but didn't they operate in the same kind of way? I was invited to one of Amway's meetings one time and I went with a friend. We both left the meeting very skeptical of how they do business.

Not to hijack org. post but since this is out here ------ YES Amway is still in business , YES both Amway and Amsoil do business in the same concept and YES they both sell (commercials) their product on TV now.

Smokintoad · Aug 11th, 2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadking070

Stop the presses!!!! I havent seen any data but I thought that amsoil was the best. I've always run SE syn. 20/50 and was considering the change to amsoil. I just want to protect my scoot I dont care what it cost.

I buy Amsoil at my HD dealer...

If anyone has looked much on the net, plenty of data is available, many opinions seem to out-way the data though.

Amsoil is one of the few willing to post results of scientific testing (ASTM standards). Here is the 2006 report ( I know Amsoil paid for it) the data is still relevant. I have yet to find a report from Spectro or Castrol or Mobile...

May 13th, 2009, 10:03 PM	#22
gs34 Contributor$ Ride: 2007 FLHTC Join Date: Apr 25th, 2008 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 607	Re: AMSOIL- A brief history The discussion of the merits of one brand of oil over another could literally go on forever. And it is as personal as the type of underwear you choose.....and just about as subjective! With todays manufacturing practices, quality control, and strict industry regulation, it is just about impossible to buy a bad oil. Choose the one you like (for whatever reason) according to what matches your equipment manufacturors specifications. Change it according to the published recommendations, or more often if you see fit. Buy good filters, and change them often. Also keep your air filters clean and changed, as the dirt that gets by it will eventually wind up in your oil. Bottom line is this...regardless of your choice of oil. Nothing beats good maintenance practices. Also, here is a listing of the major classifications of oil. Oil Groupings. American Petroleum Institute (API) has defined five groups (I through V) of base lubricating oils. The system established three groups (I-III) of paraffinic base oils based on levels of saturates, sulfur, and viscosity index (VI), as well as PAO-based oils (IV) and ester, PAG and other oils (V): Group I. Mineral oils refined using the historical techniques (i.e., solvent extraction of aromatics, solvent dewaxing, hydrofining to reduce sulfur content). This processing produces mineral oils with sulfur levels typically greater than 0.1% with viscosity index (VI) of approximately 90. Group II. Mildly hydrocracked mineral oils with conventional solvent extraction of aromatics, solvent dewaxing, and more severe hydrofining to reduce sulfur levels to less than 0.1% (typically 0.3%), as well as removing double bonds from some compounds. Viscosity index is approximately 90-100. There is now an informal Group II+ (not an official API definition) which emerged out of the need to describe base oils with a meaningfully higher viscosity index than the 100 than is typical of most Group II base oils. Group II+ base oils typically have VI in the range of 108 to 115. These base oils offer performance advantages over Group II in some passenger car motor oil applications, specifically related to balancing volatility with low temperature viscometrics. Group III. Severely hydrotreated mineral oils with sulfur content between 0.001 and 0.01%; VI in excess of 120. These are considered VHVI (very high viscosity index) mineral base stocks. They behave like synthetics in VI but have much higher pour points (-20C versus -54C for PAO) which must be modified with pour point depressants for lower temperature use. They have lower oxidation stability than Group IV or V oils. These are made in proprietary processes by Shell, Exxon, and others. New Gas-to-Liquid base stock lubricating oils are being developed for market introduction in 2005 that will compete with Group III and PAO at costs similar to Group I. These will enter the passenger car motor oil market in response to demands for more 0W oils. They are created using catalysis of natural gas and have properties similar to PAO. Group IV. Poly-alpha-olefin (PAO) synthetic oils with VI of 125-150. PAO significantly outperforms Group III in low temperature applications without the need for pour point depressant additives. Group V. Esters, polyethers, polyalkylene-glycol (PAG) synthetic oils with various VI ranging between 100 and 175. Esters are hygroscopic, causing water to enter the oil; and reactive, adding natural detergency, seal swell, and additive solubility to oil characteristics

May 13th, 2009, 10:29 PM	#23
smitty901 Retired Moderators Ride: 2007 Road glide Join Date: Jan 1st, 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5,018 My Mood:	Re: AMSOIL- A brief history can someone tell me the legal definition of premium oil. No because there is none anyone can label their product premium it is meaningless Also a big factor in what oil is best for a use is the additives in it. Many additives that help reduce wear and protect engines from heat are either not used or greatly reduce in newer auto oils The EPA required this. However some oils for other types of engines have not been reduced as much. As for other uses lubes for gears while you may get away with ruining engine oil in a gear box I am not sure it is the best. I live in Wisconsin I do not need a white paper to prove if I have 20/50 brand X oil and 20/50 true syn oil that when it is 0 degrees in my garage the syn will pour much better than the standard oil, same with the gear lubes. This main point of this thread was not weather amsoil is a good product, I have agreed to a point that it is. It is not as good as they claim nor is it the greatest for every use. The point was how they market it, and the way they invade every web site forum and any other media that the topic of oil comes up in. over 20 years ago they were doing the same thing in the trucking industry. This site gets members that join up and wait for a chance to plug amsoil no other reason. Why should we support a company like that when there are other great products that don't pull this. __________________ The Infantry leads the way

May 16th, 2009, 09:30 AM	#24
STEVE07 Moderators Ride: 2007FLHTC Join Date: Oct 4th, 2008 Location: Kitchener Ontario Canada Posts: 3,071 My Mood:	Re: AMSOIL- A brief history On a side note here.Canadian Tire carries Amsoil products,WHY? Because one of the biggest shareholders in that corporation is one of the highest members of the Amsoil pyramid and he gets a personal royalty for every can of oil or additive they sell. __________________ Please stop by the "self help section" for maintenance tips, diagnostic codes and much more. click me!>>Self Help Information and Tips<< click me!

May 22nd, 2009, 10:13 AM	#26
hd4evr Start The Engine Ride: 2007 SuperGlide Join Date: Jun 27th, 2008 Posts: 44 My Mood:	Re: AMSOIL- A brief history Amsoil is pyramid sales. That, to me, (Edit)! The whole "Amsoil is best" people sound like they've been brainwashed! I get tired of going on these forums and feeling like I'm reading an Amsoil commercial all the time. STAFF NOTES: A Friendly Reminder - Harley Davidson Community Last edited by biglew55; May 22nd, 2009 at 10:15 AM. Reason: Grammar*

May 22nd, 2009, 12:51 PM	#27
Billua Contributor$ Ride: 2008 FLTSC Join Date: Feb 18th, 2008 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 68 My Mood:	Re: AMSOIL- A brief history This thing really is quite ridiculous. I found out what oil was best for my application using oil analysis. For my Cummins powered trucks, I have tried about 4 different brands of oil. Ran them all 15 thousand miles and then sent to oil to Blackstone for an independent analysis. The Amsoil 15/40 always came back with the best numbers. It is a quality product, competitively priced, so I run it. Now, as far as the HD goes, I am no problem putting Amsoil 20/50 in it as it is a quality synthetic, again competitive priced and easy for me to buy. After I switched to this oil, I noticed the lifter chatter went away. I have no temp indicators on the bike so I can not speak to temp decreases. The long and short if it is most all the oils spoken about here are quality oils and will provide the proper protection if changed on a regular schedule. Most of us will not see an oil related engine failure in our lifetimes following that program. I am using Spectro 6 speed in the trans and Spectro Chain case oil...The Spectro costs me more and I have to pay for shipping, but it is also a great product. The trans definitely shifts better with the Spectro... So, what is best, Mopar, Chevy, Ford? Chocolate, vanilla, strawberry? Cheers! Last edited by Billua; May 22nd, 2009 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Added oil info for other 2 holes

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