Harley Davidson needs a loan

DDogg

I'm a gear and gage designer in a suburb of Detroit Michigan. As you all have heard, the auto companies are hurting. I do alot of work for the big 3 but also for Caterpillar, John Deere and Aerospace. We are diversived enough I hope, that these slow times don't bring layoffs to my company. I'm curious to here other opinions on loaning money to the big three or for that matter Harley if they had money problems. In the end, it's our money anyway. Would you or wouldn't you loan Harley or the Big 3 monies to continue operation, or let them go Bankrupt.

RichardS

On the one hand, the process of natural selection tells us that we should not keep a company on artificial life-support. If they have made bad decisions and not kept evolving as needed to stay effective, then they shouldn't be there anymore, just like the extinction of the dinosaurs who weren't able to adapt to their changing world.

THAT SAID...

It is possible that it's a very sophomoric view to continue to think that a company who needs temporary help, ( if in fact that's what it is) shouldn't be helped, because we have to consider the impact to our economy!


Read this: (Company propaganda? Maybe! Or is it??)

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smitty901

You do not even want to get me started on this one.
GM builds many of the best and highest fuel mileage cars in the world.
But high and well paid Union workser many of my own brother drive cheap imports, and don't give me that well they build them in the usa bull.
They don't pay anywere near the wages of health care US companies are forced to.
you can blame Bush and everyone one else you want but the blame lies closer to home.
Were do you spend your money. EBay ,walmart, Hudyi ,Toylet. Honda hey long as I get it cheap but they pay me well I got over. Hurts but true.
Hd doing ok I do not think they will be going anywere anytime soon.
Everyone in my faimly drives a well made GM, those that ride except a new member ride HD. We'll strighten him out in time.
And This year no gifts will be bought for anyone not made ina us plant.
Government did not creat this mess we did.
2003 - 2007 US Heavyweight New Registrations Share[25] US Market Share 2007 2006 2005 2004 2003
Harley-Davidson 49.4% 50% 49.6% 50.2% 50.3%
Honda 14.2 15.1 16.6 18.7 18.4
Suzuki 12.5 12.9 12.4 10.2 9.8
Yamaha 9.2 8.6 8.9 8.7 8.5
Kawasaki 7.2 6.8 6.5 6.4 6.7



2006 Operating Metrics Operating Metrics Harley-Davidson Honda
Units Sold (thou) 361 103
Units Sold per Employee 35.4 3.6
Revenue per Employee (USD) 637,881 356,746
Operating Margin(%) 27.5 9.2
CapEx as % of Sales 3.8% 4.2%

Take a look at what US products cost in Germany , japan and anyother counrty if we did the same thing to them we would have no Honda or toylet in the us or and german cars

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kemo

I don't know why everyone bashes the unions for high wages. There is not one union member who makes a million dollar disission that flops. How bout the CEO's that make $5 million a year plus a big bonus even if the company goes belly up. If a CEO can turn a company around fine give him his bonus. Any body that works for minimun wage and cries about some body making twice as much him should go look for a better paying job. My ambition when I worked was to make as much as I could so I couldd have the Harley, and he RV and the nice house. Who do you think pays the majority of taxes in these countries, the people making minimum wages. I don't hear people bashing the Harley employees who are union members.

Gary12850

I'd like to see them get it...but have the government take it from the foreign companies as a tax on any monies moved out of the country...it's time we took care of our own...shipping our dollars overseas is what's killing our economy....

glider

I would like to see them file for bankruptcy and restructure the companies so they run more efficiently. The GM plants down south are making less than half of the wages of the GM plants up north that are unionized and they have no issues with layoffs like the northern counterparts have.
Why is it that the union shops get such high salaries and the workers that are doing the same job elsewhere for less money aren't experiencing the same problems?

Greed brought about by unions and demanding more than their worth I feel is responsible for many of the problems we are facing now. Setting aside the cost of living in the different areas for a minute, why should a union shop get twice+ the pay for doing the same job as a non union shop?

And furthermore...Keep our tax dollars HERE!!!!!!

Off my box now.

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roadrashman

This topic is a time bomb. I live in the midwest and I somewhat agree with smitty about buying american made products. But have you ever looked at the majority of things we use everyday and how much of it comes from foreign countries. All of us are guilty of buying foreign products even on our HD's. The average american is looking for the most for the least and myself included will not work for ten dollars a day. The result is corporations find someone who will . Who knows what will save us , the fix at the moment is to keep handing out money and hope it works. Good luck to us all ride safe everyone.

glider

We can deal with that here.

I however disagree with Smitty here. I want value for my dollar and will buy a product that gives me that.When the American car manufacturers provide a car that is a quality unit backed with excellent service, I'll consider an American car again. I haven't owned an American made car aside from my Corvette for somewhere around 25 years now. I am a stickler for quality and I just can't find decent quality in an American made car. I buy Acuras and I am extremely happy not only with the quality of the car but the service that goes with them. My dealer vacuums and washes every car in for service, but they ask me if I want mine done being that there is no improvement no matter how hard they try over the way it comes in. The service has always been excellent and done properly with no problems at all. Something I can't say about the American counterparts.
The service standard is unmatched in the American car companies because of the union protection that the employees are given. There's very little pride in the servicing of the American car dealers. You get your car back and the problem isn't taken care of properly or the car is full of greasy fingerprints. The employees know they are protected by the union and don't care what type of work they turn out.

I took my Corvette in for a problem with the ratchet in the parking brake handle. An easy fix but I had the warranty on it so I decided to let them do it for a matter of record for the future. The problem was the first pull on the emergency brake in the morning or after the car sat for a while that the handle would not stay up but return to the off position. Not a good thing if parked on a hill.
Well when I went to pick the car up that afternoon, I was told that they would have to "rip out the entire interior to replace the mechanism". Obviously a ploy to get out of doing the job being only the passenger seat had to be unbolted and the rug pulled back. They did however manage to put 38 miles on the car in the time they had it for the day. I guess they wanted to test the brake handle in different locations. The car didn't even have to be started to test the problem it was in for and I explained this to the service manager in great lengthy detail as anyone that knows me would obviously agree with.

Making a long story short, I exchanged a few phrases with the service manager and took the car home and gave the ratchet a bit of WD40 and never had another problem with it.

American car manufacturers should take a few lessons from some of the import car manufacturers how to do business and maybe they wouldn't be in the hole that they are now in.

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mqhybrid

Everyone has good points. I work as a automotive tech and the warrenty repairs for gm, ford, chyrsler. are very high and not helping them were toyota, and honda are much lower. plus the fact that they spend millions on consept cars that will never see the road does not help. I don't know about anybody eles but an hd will hold its value better then a gm. or a ford. this could be why poeple buy a imports. me self a i got a dodge dorango back 2002. Traded in tow years later and lost 7000 grand i don't know about anybody eles but that did not feel good. if that was import the lose would have been a lot less then american built car that do not hold there value.

silentflyer

It's no easy fix:
First FAIR TRADE -same rules and regs for all trading partners, you hit us with tarrifs we do the same for you. Try to sell a GM-Ford auto in China.....
Second: get a handle on corperate pay/greed, and at the same time bring union and management pay-benifits in line with what the rest of the work force gets, BOTH management and labor. You can't expect people who make 25$/hour to buy products from people who make 3-4 times what the "average" guy does. Who in the world is worth what we pay the CEO's?
Let them do what Lee Iacoca did for Chrysler, work for a reasonable salery and stock options, if they make money for the company-stock holders, the CEO's make money, if they don't they will get there rewards anyway, and be fired with out the big golden parachutes...like they get now....
If Honda-Toyota whoever builds cars here, if they don't re-invest the PROFITS here tax the hell out of them, why should we prop up Japan's' ecomony?

Yes there are problems with American industry, but it CAN be fixed, anyone remember the AMF-Harley nightmare? Ragan gave Harley a bit of breathing room and look what they did to the market...........