Harley Davidson needs a loan

DDogg

Very interesting comment, I've never been to Europe, so this information is some what new to me. If in Europe you are paying twice as much for a simple quart of Primary 35 bucks, I'm curious to know how much an hour does the average man make over there. Now here alot of people think 20 bucks an hour is alot. It's not. But if you paying double, (50,000 for a Escort), what's the minimum wage in Europe.

SledDog

Stand by for action.... Ford is bringing the Euro Volvo based Focus to the states for 2010. Yes, Martin14, it's the SAME Focus you see overseas... The USA design is being dropped... The spec will be changed to account for American safety requirements.

And it will NOT be double the cost of what is paid in the EU.

Ford is also bringing the Fiesta here in 2010.. Again, it's the Eu design modified for US requirements...

The rumor mill has it, the first Foci and Fiestas may be be EU made. As Ford has to re-tool the lines.

Ford feels demand will be high for the both. It's smart move on their parts. Commonality of parts, production techniques, and design reduces costs. The same parts for both mean suppliers get larger orders and larger orders mean reduced costs for Ford.

By having 1 platform, that only needs minor changes by country, Ford saves money in design, configuration control, parts, and production line design.

Who knows... With the value of the dollar against the EURO being what it is, the US Ford plants may be making the Focus and the Fiesta for the EU market. Why produce them overseas when the can do it here, in the US, cheaper.

__________________
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My Newest "Harley", MV Agusta F4 1000 S (05), 2009 Ducati Streetfighter S
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Randall K. Wilson

I have kind of sit back and have read and re-read some of the comments on this thread... It is obvious that there are strong point of disagreement from one end of the argument to the other. However, with all that being said, I bet if all of us different belligerents, we were on our scoots and came across each other on the road, we would clan up in a pack of rumbling v-twins and start rubbing the rubber off our two (or three in some cases) wheels. And furthermore I think we would have a good time together....now getting back to the issue at the beginning of this post.

I don't pose to be an expert or know the answer to every situation. In that I am a GM retiree I'm not clearly in the dark either. Do I think business should be up in DC with hands out? In theory no I don't, but it is much more deeper than that. It was said by someone, can't remember who..."what we drive is what drives the nation." In looking at the bigger picture these are some of my thoughts...

As the years have gone by our society (myself included), keeps buying more and more goods that are made overseas...(Japan. Tiawan, China, & Mexico etc.). For the sake of this discussion. Do you think this is the main cause for our economic woes in our country?

Now when Reagan was in....it seemed that is when I started hearing the buzz word..."free trade". However it seemed to me that the free trade RR was talking about was importing all of this stuff from overseas...and to me we did not export the same amount of goods as we imported...especially cars and light trucks. It is my understanding that many countries would "frown" on importing American cars, with high taxes and tariffs on them. If that is true...that don't seem fair to me? Well we keep buying stuff from overseas and now the good paying jobs are no more.

Many moons ago when I was just 15 I took a class called "General Business". In this class it seemed to me that they kept driving the point home that what had made our country so strong economically and prosperous was our interdependence on each other for goods and services. In other words we would keep buying stuff back and forth from items which were made within our country and thereby keeping each other in a paycheck. I buy a stove..then the stove guy buys a GM Pick-up....then we both pay taxes and a teacher gets to teach and get paid because the guys in manufacturing are paying lots of taxes because they arew working steady etc...etc etc.....

So with all of that being said...looking at the bigger picture....Have we gone and shot ourselves in the foot from our buying all of the foreign made stuff? Or am I just looking at it from a self centered selfish attitude, because I would like to see everyone buying GM products to keep me in a pension check...and to see good paying jobs in our country.

I know people bash unions and the UAW for one....But as I have said before...if it was not for the union GM would have worked everybody for 50 cents an hour. Obviously there has to be a fair balance with union and mgt and I suppose at times that was not the case. However...it seems that as union jobs have gone, so has the standard of living in our country.

Now this I do know....back in the day where I worked, most UAW workers were non-skilled. If one of these gents had a wife at home and two or three kids...and the wife did not work...and he provided a nice home (affordable), and drove a half way good car....Working just 40 hours a week, it would take most everything he made to provide or his flock. For this person to have some extra niceties he would have to work overtime, or two jobs, and his wife would have to work as well. That is the only way he might really save or have some "goodies"....Am I right in my assumptions or do I just not get it?

Here are some thoughts shared with me from a good friend:

I will say that world wide "free" trade with minimal barriers can be a good thing if the participants are honest and the "playing fields" are even... a lot to ask since this is where the Devil is in the details. Our present dilemma is that international business is interested in short term profitability instead of long term trade viability... because the average tenure of a CEO is about 5 years, his opportunity to steal as much as he can before he hits the road. Somehow, boards of directors must be detached from the influence of the management and be accountable to the stockholders... another dilemma because the stock market has become a casino instead of a long term investment objective, so the stockholders, by and large, are not serious owners but are aligned with the interests of the criminal top management.
Most of this is my opinion unsupported by data but intuitively supported by history.

Ok lets face the facts...the biggest lobby in DC during the 1980's was the Japs, (the same people that brought us Pearl Harbor), IMHO a lot of dirty deals were being done to further there agendas on the backs of the middle class here. The white shirts in DC know about all of the "palm greasing" and they know this is most likely the root cause of a lot of the woes today. The cotton picker bend over backward to patronize the japs and at the same time keep there own in the teeth..."money gets it way in our culture"....my dear ole Dad once said.

Yes the japs make good cars, but not superior cars. I know two many people who have put 200,000 to 300,000 on small block GM products with out needing a rebuild etc. Most folk I know who drive Jap don't keep them long enough to find out what they are made of...I think they are scared to.

As a GM retiree, I'm just a pawn on a chess board concering all of this upheaval. I do know this, I worked hard all of my life 6 and 7 days a week, shifts I did not like, bosses that were "individuals", exerienced a good number of layoffs the first ten years. Paid tons of taxes to keep free loaders on the dole.

The Lord has blessed me and I am keeping my trust and faith in him...and I'll keep paying my retiree union dues because unions have done a lot to help raise the standard of living...many non union members have benefited indirectly from union envolvement in our nation but some would never admit it.

The issue is so deep, and I think the Government is in many ways the blame for what has happened.

I rest my case...and respect everyone's point of view....Blessings to all.

DDogg

I enjoyed your comments very much. Your right in many ways. "What we drive, drives the nation is the root of the problem. We rely on the automoblie for jobs in to many ways to so say we don't need the big 3. I think it was said the 1 out of every 10 jobs is related to the car industry. We can't just say pop-poo to that.

Randall K. Wilson

Quote:from DDog

I enjoyed your comments very much. Your right in many ways. "What we drive, drives the nation is the root of the problem. We rely on the automoblie for jobs in to many ways to so say we don't need the big 3. I think it was said the 1 out of every 10 jobs is related to the car industry. We can't just say pop-poo to that.

DDog, Thanks a heap, hey I thought this guy brought out some interesting comments....RKW

BY MITCH ALBOM
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST
OK. It's a fantasy. But if I had five minutes in front of Congress last week, here's what I would've said:
Good morning. First of all, before you ask, I flew commercial. Northwest Airlines. Had a bag of peanuts for breakfast. Of course, that's Northwest, which just merged with Delta, a merger you, our government, approved -- and one which, inevitably, will lead to big bonuses for their executives and higher costs for us. You seem to be OK with that kind of business.
Which makes me wonder why you're so against our kind of business? The kind we do in Detroit. The kind that gets your fingernails dirty. The kind where people use hammers and drills, not keystrokes. The kind where you get paid for making something, not moving money around a board and skimming a percentage.
You've already given hundreds of billions to banking and finance companies -- and hardly demanded anything. Yet you balk at the very idea of giving $25 billion to the Detroit Three. Heck, you shoveled that exact amount to Citigroup -- $25 billion -- just weeks ago, and that place is about to crumble anyhow.
Does the word "hypocrisy" ring a bell?
Protecting the home turf?
Sen. Shelby. Yes. You. From Alabama. You've been awfully vocal. You called the Detroit Three's leaders "failures." You said loans to them would be "wasted money." You said they should go bankrupt and "let the market work."
Why weren't you equally vocal when your state handed out hundreds of millions in tax breaks to Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai, Honda and others to open plants there? Why not "let the market work"? Or is it better for Alabama if the Detroit Three fold so that the foreign companies -- in your state -- can produce more?
Way to think of the nation first, senator.
And you, Sen. Kyl of Arizona. You told reporters: "There's no reason to throw money at a problem that's not going to get solved."
That's funny, coming from such an avid supporter of the Iraq war. You've been gung ho on that for years. So how could you just sit there when, according to the New York Times, an Iraqi former chief investigator told Congress that $13 billion in U.S. reconstruction funds "had been lost to fraud, embezzlement, theft and waste" by the Iraqi government?
That's 13 billion, senator. More than half of what the auto industry is asking for. Thirteen billion? Gone? Wasted?
Where was your "throwing money at a problem that's not going to get solved" speech then?
Watching over the bankers?
And the rest of you lawmakers. The ones who insist the auto companies show you a plan before you help them. You've already handed over $150 billion of our tax money to AIG. How come you never demanded a plan from it? How come when AIG blew through its first $85 billion, you quickly gave it more? The car companies may be losing money, but they can explain it: They're paying workers too much and selling cars for too little.
AIG lost hundred of billions in credit default swaps -- which no one can explain and which make nothing, produce nothing, employ no one and are essentially bets on failure.
And you don't demand a paragraph from it?
Look. Nobody is saying the auto business is healthy. Its unions need to adjust more. Its models and dealerships need to shrink. Its top executives have to downsize their own importance.
But this is a business that has been around for more than a century. And some of its problems are because of that, because people get used to certain wages, manufacturers get used to certain business models. It's easy to point to foreign carmakers with tax breaks, no union costs and a cleaner slate -- not to mention help from their home countries -- and say "be more like them."
But if you let us die, you let our national spine collapse. America can't be a country of lawyers and financial analysts. We have to manufacture. We need that infrastructure. We need those jobs. We need that security. Have you forgotten who built equipment during the world wars?
Besides, let's be honest. When it comes to blowing budgets, being grossly inefficient and wallowing in debt, who's better than Congress?
So who are you to lecture anyone on how to run a business?
Ask fair questions. Demand accountability. But knock it off with the holier than thou crap, OK? You got us into this mess with greed, a bad Fed policy and too little regulation. Don't kick our tires to make yourselves look better.
Contact MITCH ALBOM at 313-223-4581 or malbom@freepress.com. Catch "The Mitch Albom Show" 5-7 p.m. weekdays on WJR-AM (760).

chunky59

the only way i would loan them money is if they change the way they operate, and they dont want to do that.

Jim McCarthy

Hell yes. Let's give it to the working class enough of bailing out all those "banker suits".


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