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SE Stage 2 what to expect

Engine, Fuel and Exhaust

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Old Dec 19th, 2010, 01:07 PM     #1
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SE Stage 2 what to expect

I have a 2009 Fat Bob.
I am taking advantage of a stage 2 special from the dealer.
Total is $1400 including parts, labor and all Dyno tuning


I already have the following Stage 1:
Ventilator AC
SE Performance Slip-ons
SERT Tuner

This is the SE stage 2 getting done this week:
Big bore 103 and Flat top pistons
I chose the 254e cams instead of the 255

When they finish, dealer said they will put it on the Dyno (not full open throttle) and leave the bike with a "break-in" tune. After 300 miles or so, I come back for the final max performance tune.

So, my question is, what should I expect for the final product?
I am not asking for exact numbers but what HP\TQ range is to be considered a good job?
I just want to be sure I am not getting shorted by some hack on a Dyno tuner.
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Old Dec 19th, 2010, 01:18 PM     #2
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Re: SE Stage 2 what to expect

Quote: Originally Posted by DynaBob09 View Post
I just want to be sure I am not getting shorted by some hack on a Dyno tuner.
If this is from a HD dealership your A/F will be choked off to 13.6 at WOT (the dotted line on the bottom of ALL dealership 250i dyno charts) because their hands are tied by law. You really need to uplift that number on your own. Since you have the SE tuner dongle it is not hard to do.

Why did you select the 254E over the 255? Just curious.
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Old Dec 19th, 2010, 01:25 PM     #3
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Quote: Originally Posted by Hoople View Post
If this is from a HD dealership your A/F will be choked off to 13.6 at WOT (the dotted line on the bottom of ALL dealership 250i dyno charts) because their hands are tied by law. You really need to uplift that number on your own. Since you have the SE tuner dongle it is not hard to do.

Why did you select the 254E over the 255? Just curious
Better for my driving style. After a lot of research including calling Harley, 254 will give a little more mid range and not fall off as early as the 255. They said 255 is a good performer but better suited for heavier bikes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hoople View Post
If this is from a HD dealership your A/F will be choked off to 13.6 at WOT (the dotted line on the bottom of ALL dealership 250i dyno charts) because their hands are tied by law. You really need to uplift that number on your own. Since you have the SE tuner dongle it is not hard to do.

Why did you select the 254E over the 255? Just curious.
Didn't know about "A/F will be choked off to 13.6 at WOT".. In fact I know nothing about tuning. Thanks.

Last edited by TQuentin1; Dec 19th, 2010 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Follow-on post
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Old Dec 19th, 2010, 01:48 PM     #4
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Re: SE Stage 2 what to expect

I see what you mean. I can't give you any hard numbers for H.P. or torque but I bet you will still have some more hidden power once you fatten up the A/F a bit more.

Look at Any dealership 250I dyno pull you can find. At the bottom is the A/F line. There is a printed dotted line all the way across the paper. Notice that the tuner will try to match the tailpipe output to that dotted line. Note that the printed dotted line represents an A/F ratio of 13.6 to 1. Also note that that pull was done at WOT.

In reality the A/F ratio during WOT (I repeat, WOT) for a performance engine should be in the mid 12's. The lowest ratio the tuner can go is to the dotted line.
That is really too lean for a performance engine at WOT. That's a Great mid range cruise A/F ratio but not a WOT ratio, which it is.
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Old Dec 19th, 2010, 08:29 PM     #5
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Re: SE Stage 2 what to expect

Quote: Originally Posted by DynaBob09 View Post
I have a 2009 Fat Bob.
I am taking advantage of a stage 2 special from the dealer.
Total is $1400 including parts, labor and all Dyno tuning


I already have the following Stage 1:
Ventilator AC
SE Performance Slip-ons
SERT Tuner

This is the SE stage 2 getting done this week:
Big bore 103 and Flat top pistons
I chose the 254e cams instead of the 255

When they finish, dealer said they will put it on the Dyno (not full open throttle) and leave the bike with a "break-in" tune. After 300 miles or so, I come back for the final max performance tune.

So, my question is, what should I expect for the final product?
I am not asking for exact numbers but what HP\TQ range is to be considered a good job?
I just want to be sure I am not getting shorted by some hack on a Dyno tuner.
I saw a dyno sheet on a 2010 Ultra Limited, 103CI, SE254e cams, SEAC, Vance and Hines Power Dual headers, Supertrapp Fat Shots exhaust that made about 90/100 (hp/tq).
Is that about what you were looking for?
Another SE cam to consider is the SE 204. It is a nice cam.

Randall
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Old Dec 20th, 2010, 10:22 AM     #6
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Re: SE Stage 2 what to expect

Quote: Originally Posted by R.Bingham View Post
I saw a dyno sheet on a 2010 Ultra Limited, 103CI, SE254e cams, SEAC, Vance and Hines Power Dual headers, Supertrapp Fat Shots exhaust that made about 90/100 (hp/tq).
Is that about what you were looking for?
Another SE cam to consider is the SE 204. It is a nice cam.

Randall
Yes Thanks. I assume if the give it to me with at least 86 + HP at a min, the tuner did a decent job.
How would you compare the 204 cam to the 254e?
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Old Dec 20th, 2010, 10:45 AM     #7
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Re: SE Stage 2 what to expect

Straight from the Screaming Eagle Catalog.

SE -204 CAM KIT
This midrange torque bolt-in cam produces peak horsepower
around 5800 R PM and installation does not
require any headwork or performance valve springs.
Should be used in conjunction with open intake and
exhaust.

SE -254E C am Kit
This cam provides great low-end torque along with
good midrange. A good “all-around” cam, the SE-254E is a good match for a Dyna, Softail or light Touring bike - Road King®, Street Glide® or Road Glide® Custom - when the aggressive rider desires a little more top-end
horsepower. In a 0-60 sprint or 1/4 mile drag race, the
SE-254E-equipped model would pull ahead of an identical
model with a SE-255 cam.

Hope that helps confuse the situation
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Old Dec 20th, 2010, 11:21 AM     #8
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Re: SE Stage 2 what to expect

Quote: Originally Posted by TripleJ View Post
Straight from the Screaming Eagle Catalog.

SE -204 CAM KIT
This midrange torque bolt-in cam produces peak horsepower
around 5800 R PM and installation does not
require any headwork or performance valve springs.
Should be used in conjunction with open intake and
exhaust.

SE -254E C am Kit
This cam provides great low-end torque along with
good midrange. A good “all-around” cam, the SE-254E is a good match for a Dyna, Softail or light Touring bike - Road King®, Street Glide® or Road Glide® Custom - when the aggressive rider desires a little more top-end
horsepower. In a 0-60 sprint or 1/4 mile drag race, the
SE-254E-equipped model would pull ahead of an identical
model with a SE-255 cam.

Hope that helps confuse the situation
Both look good.
I read the same in the catalog too. Looks like the power curve on the 204 is a little further to the right. I wonder which has higher peaks though?
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Old Dec 20th, 2010, 12:49 PM     #9
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Re: SE Stage 2 what to expect

Quote: Originally Posted by DynaBob09 View Post
Yes Thanks. I assume if the give it to me with at least 86 + HP at a min, the tuner did a decent job.
How would you compare the 204 cam to the 254e?
The 204 will come on sooner than the 254. This will translate into better roll on power.Fifth gear roll ons the 204 will leave the 254 behind. It will probably give you about 5 more hp/tq than the 254 because the squeeze is tighter. If you were to put in 10.5:1 pistons then the 254 would out perform the 204.

CCP(cold cranking pressure) of a 204 in the 103 will be about 192#
CCP of the 254 in a 103 with flat tops will be about 185#

Just for comparison the 255 in a 103 with flat tops is about 201#

A 96" TC with stock heads and V&H Big Shots, SE a/c with the 204 has dynoed at 93/104 (hp/tq). So it would be easy to assume that you could see 99/108+ (hp/tq) from a 103.

The 254 will definitely be softer on the bottom than the 204.

The 204 has a nasty sounding idle.

Also as a side note I would talk to your dealer about compression releases. The 103's from the factory come standard with compression releases.

If your goal is just 85+ hp you may want to for go the Big Bore and just do a cam swap. The 204 would be a good choice as well as the Andrews 48H.

Randall
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Old Dec 20th, 2010, 04:21 PM     #10
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Re: SE Stage 2 what to expect

I am hoping for reliable dialy driver at 88-90HP and 100+ TQ with this stage II 254 build.

In regards to compression, look at what I came up with:

Stock:
Static Compression 9.56:1
Corrected compression 9.14:1
Cold Cranking Compression 188.9

254e Cams:
Static Compression 10.14:1
Corrected compression 9: 2 2:1
Cold Cranking Compression 190.9

255 Cams:
Static Compression 10.14:1
Corrected compression 9:83:1
Cold Cranking Compression 207.2

The corrected compression and CCP of the 254 are a lot lower than that of the 255. The 254 is very close to stock, so it should alleviate starting problems folks experience with 255 and other possible compression issues. So for this reason the dealer and I decided CR was not necessary.
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