Khrome Werks vs. Rush slip-ons dyno

mstngjoe · Aug 1st, 2009, 04:49 PM

Here are the numbers from the baseline dyno I had done today. No tuning or other mods. Khrome Werks HP+ slip-ons (blue line) vs. Rush 2.0 slip-ons (red line)

The 2nd sheet is the roll-on showing average air fuel ratio.

Just to add....the roll-on is the average a/f ratio in closed loop.

rigidthumper · Nov 2nd, 2009, 09:49 AM

IMO, not much of a difference- Correction factors were 3% apart(.98 vs 1.01), runs were about 3 1/2% apart. Not a significant difference, from what I can see. Which one "feels" better while riding?
Robin

mstngjoe · Nov 2nd, 2009, 12:24 PM

The dyno runs were made to confirm a/f ratio only.

I wasn't all that concerned about hp/tq at this point. The references will be handy after I do a full stage 1 and some cams.

The Khrome Werks pipes sound better, look better and have a better finish than the Rush muffs I replaced.

Butt dyno noticed a very slight improvement out of the hole.

But that could be nothing more than wishful perception.

glens · Nov 2nd, 2009, 09:24 PM

Well, here's my take on it.

Unless the dyno operator reset the AFVs prior to each run on that comparison chart, or unless you'd had the AFV tables nicely populated for the second set as you did the first (assuming you rode it in with the Rushes on, or at least had been riding it a while that way), those charts really don't represent the two products equally.

Even if the AFVs had been reset prior to any of the runs, with no filling of the AFV tables, they still wouldn't represent what you're going to get once the AFV tables get filled in.

Probably the only trace which shows anything truly meaningful at this time is the totally-closed-loop one showing the AFR. But that trace would likely be the same for both setups and reflects the O2 sensor bias voltages programmed into the ECU. Assuming you have parts which don't tax the range of the adaptive fueling.

mstngjoe · Nov 2nd, 2009, 10:36 PM

The KW were run for a couple of weeks before testing. The Rush muffs had several ride outs on them (50 miles or so). I should think the ECM had plenty of input for AFV.

I didn't post the sheet as a testament to power gained or lost with each set of mufflers. I merely wanted to show what the addition of slip-on mufflers did relative to the a/f readings on my bike.

Lots of questions are asked about the effect of such a mod (slip-ons only). Most people don't think it changes the a/f ratio, or if it does the ECM compensates. I thought sharing my results might be helpful for those thinking of making a similiar mod to a similar bike.

Additionally, I'm quite confident in my indy, his expertise and his equipment. Otherwise I'd be using someone else.

DDogg · Nov 3rd, 2009, 07:02 AM

One reason I went with the Krome Werks on my FatBob is they are identical to the stock pipes which I love. Second they do sound good. Nice low rumble. Downshift to 2nd and roll the troddle, oh man. The Krome Werks along with S/E AC and PCIII, I gained at least 10 in both torque and HP. Boy doesn she run. Air and Fuel looks good too. Any comments would be appreciated.

glens · Nov 3rd, 2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstngjoe

Lots of questions are asked about the effect of such a mod (slip-ons only). Most people don't think it changes the a/f ratio, or if it does the ECM compensates. I thought sharing my results might be helpful for those thinking of making a similiar mod to a similar bike.

You say most people don't think it'll change or that the ECM compensates. I'd say your AFR charts support the notion, but the way you phrased that leads me to believe you might think otherwise. Could you please clarify?

smitty901 · Nov 3rd, 2009, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstngjoe

The KW were run for a couple of weeks before testing. The Rush muffs had several ride outs on them (50 miles or so). I should think the ECM had plenty of input for AFV.

I didn't post the sheet as a testament to power gained or lost with each set of mufflers. I merely wanted to show what the addition of slip-on mufflers did relative to the a/f readings on my bike.

Lots of questions are asked about the effect of such a mod (slip-ons only). Most people don't think it changes the a/f ratio, or if it does the ECM compensates. I thought sharing my results might be helpful for those thinking of making a similiar mod to a similar bike.

Additionally, I'm quite confident in my indy, his expertise and his equipment. Otherwise I'd be using someone else.

Before 09 the emc did not adjust well to the mods. however the 09 and new will.

mstngjoe · Nov 3rd, 2009, 06:30 PM

I rarely use absolutes when making statements or offering opinions.

You inferred incorrectly tho. I do not think "otherwise" relative to the a/f ratio readings before/after such a muffler swap.

I swapped out the mufflers on a 2007 883XL with the same results. So I've always been of the opinion that the ECM would compensate for just changing out the mufflers.........in my experience.

Now.....does the TC 96 run too lean from the factory???? That's another discussion.

smitty901 · Nov 3rd, 2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstngjoe

I rarely use absolutes when making statements or offering opinions.

You inferred incorrectly tho. I do not think "otherwise" relative to the a/f ratio readings before/after such a muffler swap.

I swapped out the mufflers on a 2007 883XL with the same results. So I've always been of the opinion that the ECM would compensate for just changing out the mufflers.........in my experience.

Now.....does the TC 96 run too lean from the factory???? That's another discussion.

Do TC96 run lean from the factory? YOU BET. EPA requires it.
Will it hurt the bike not really, will bike run better with a bit of fuel add properly? YOU BET it will. Are there lot of way to do it ? yes
If you add normal slipons and a AC change aka stage1 will an 09 or new adjust ?YEP. what will it adjust to? The same factroy lean setting you had. So what have you gained? not much other than looks and maybe some tone in the exhaust.
Doing a satge 1 and not adding fuel is like going to a dance and sitting along the wall all night. Why bother?
Thanks for posting your charts

Aug 1st, 2009, 04:49 PM	#1
mstngjoe Warming The Wheels Ride: 2007 FXSTC Join Date: Feb 7th, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 85 My Mood:	Here are the numbers from the baseline dyno I had done today. No tuning or other mods. Khrome Werks HP+ slip-ons (blue line) vs. Rush 2.0 slip-ons (red line) The 2nd sheet is the roll-on showing average air fuel ratio. Just to add....the roll-on is the average a/f ratio in closed loop. Attached Thumbnails __________________ 2007 Softail Custom, Cobalt Pearl/Pewter Pearl, Khrome Werks HP+ slip-ons, ISO grips & pegs. Last edited by R. Lewis; Aug 1st, 2009 at 06:25 PM. Reason: condense info. shared

Nov 2nd, 2009, 09:49 AM	#2
rigidthumper New Family Ride: 2010 FLTRX Join Date: Nov 2nd, 2009 Posts: 4 My Mood:	Re: Khrome Werks vs. Rush slip-ons dyno IMO, not much of a difference- Correction factors were 3% apart(.98 vs 1.01), runs were about 3 1/2% apart. Not a significant difference, from what I can see. Which one "feels" better while riding? Robin

Nov 2nd, 2009, 12:24 PM	#3
mstngjoe Warming The Wheels Ride: 2007 FXSTC Join Date: Feb 7th, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 85 My Mood:	Re: Khrome Werks vs. Rush slip-ons dyno The dyno runs were made to confirm a/f ratio only. I wasn't all that concerned about hp/tq at this point. The references will be handy after I do a full stage 1 and some cams. The Khrome Werks pipes sound better, look better and have a better finish than the Rush muffs I replaced. Butt dyno noticed a very slight improvement out of the hole. But that could be nothing more than wishful perception. __________________ 2007 Softail Custom, Cobalt Pearl/Pewter Pearl, Khrome Werks HP+ slip-ons, ISO grips & pegs.

Nov 2nd, 2009, 09:24 PM	#4
glens Banned Ride: 09FLHTCU Join Date: Oct 6th, 2009 Posts: 97	Re: Khrome Werks vs. Rush slip-ons dyno Well, here's my take on it. Unless the dyno operator reset the AFVs prior to each run on that comparison chart, or unless you'd had the AFV tables nicely populated for the second set as you did the first (assuming you rode it in with the Rushes on, or at least had been riding it a while that way), those charts really don't represent the two products equally. Even if the AFVs had been reset prior to any of the runs, with no filling of the AFV tables, they still wouldn't represent what you're going to get once the AFV tables get filled in. Probably the only trace which shows anything truly meaningful at this time is the totally-closed-loop one showing the AFR. But that trace would likely be the same for both setups and reflects the O2 sensor bias voltages programmed into the ECU. Assuming you have parts which don't tax the range of the adaptive fueling.

Nov 2nd, 2009, 10:36 PM	#5
mstngjoe Warming The Wheels Ride: 2007 FXSTC Join Date: Feb 7th, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 85 My Mood:	Re: Khrome Werks vs. Rush slip-ons dyno The KW were run for a couple of weeks before testing. The Rush muffs had several ride outs on them (50 miles or so). I should think the ECM had plenty of input for AFV. I didn't post the sheet as a testament to power gained or lost with each set of mufflers. I merely wanted to show what the addition of slip-on mufflers did relative to the a/f readings on my bike. Lots of questions are asked about the effect of such a mod (slip-ons only). Most people don't think it changes the a/f ratio, or if it does the ECM compensates. I thought sharing my results might be helpful for those thinking of making a similiar mod to a similar bike. Additionally, I'm quite confident in my indy, his expertise and his equipment. Otherwise I'd be using someone else. __________________ 2007 Softail Custom, Cobalt Pearl/Pewter Pearl, Khrome Werks HP+ slip-ons, ISO grips & pegs.

Nov 3rd, 2009, 07:02 AM	#6
DDogg Community Star Ride: 2008 Fat Bob Join Date: Aug 30th, 2008 Location: Clinton Twp. Michigan Posts: 602 My Mood:	Re: Khrome Werks vs. Rush slip-ons dyno One reason I went with the Krome Werks on my FatBob is they are identical to the stock pipes which I love. Second they do sound good. Nice low rumble. Downshift to 2nd and roll the troddle, oh man. The Krome Werks along with S/E AC and PCIII, I gained at least 10 in both torque and HP. Boy doesn she run. Air and Fuel looks good too. Any comments would be appreciated. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Treat her good, and she'll ride ya better.

Nov 3rd, 2009, 06:30 PM	#9
mstngjoe Warming The Wheels Ride: 2007 FXSTC Join Date: Feb 7th, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 85 My Mood:	Re: Khrome Werks vs. Rush slip-ons dyno I rarely use absolutes when making statements or offering opinions. You inferred incorrectly tho. I do not think "otherwise" relative to the a/f ratio readings before/after such a muffler swap. I swapped out the mufflers on a 2007 883XL with the same results. So I've always been of the opinion that the ECM would compensate for just changing out the mufflers.........in my experience. Now.....does the TC 96 run too lean from the factory???? That's another discussion. __________________ 2007 Softail Custom, Cobalt Pearl/Pewter Pearl, Khrome Werks HP+ slip-ons, ISO grips & pegs.

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Khrome Werks vs. Rush slip-ons dyno

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